UK local elections 2021

[Ingram85]

41 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You cant say every person who votes tory is a horrible person. 

I didn’t say all people who voted Tory are horrible. But I’d wager most if not all horrible people voted Tory. Hang on, am I Will Self?

[HanoiVillan]

Politics isn't - certainly isn't primarily, really shouldn't be much at all - about 'virtue'. There's nobody waiting to give anyone a medal for their morality.

[bickster]

Just now, Ingram85 said:

I didn’t say all people who voted Tory are horrible. But I’d wager most if not all horrible people voted Tory. Hang on, am I Will Self?

That makes @Demitri_C VT's answer to Mark Francois 

[Jonesy7211]

The worst part of this for me is that the Tories are going to see the results and be emboldened even further. It'll be a case of "Look what we've continually got away with, look at how we've behaved and they've still voted for us in droves. No-one can touch us! Let's defund/embezzle/cheat/lie/steal/abuse (delete as appropriate) even more".

I feel for future generations, this country is sinking lower and lower.

[mjmooney]

44 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You cant say every person who votes tory is a horrible person. 

If the cap fits... 

[ml1dch]

5 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

You got the job!

For the next GE I see the slogan "Vermin ****, Vote for us this time" being a winner. 

Well the current strategy of "we'll be a bit like the pricks in charge, just a bit less" doesn't seem to be all that successful either, with the added bonus of haemorrhaging support off the other end. 

[The Fun Factory]

9 minutes ago, Jonesy7211 said:

The worst part of this for me is that the Tories are going to see the results and be emboldened even further. It'll be a case of "Look what we've continually got away with, look at how we've behaved and they've still voted for us in droves. No-one can touch us! Let's defund/embezzle/cheat/lie/steal/abuse (delete as appropriate) even more".

I feel for future generations, this country is sinking lower and lower.

'Some people say we're racists.We're not racists. We're realists.Some people call us Nazis.We're not Nazis.No, what we are, we are nationalists and there's a reason people try to pigeonhole us like this.And that is because of one word, gentlemen.- Fear.'

[Seat68]

I have no clue who looks at them and thinks I like that, it will get my vote. They will sell off the parts of the nhs they haven’t sold off. They will be more corrupt than they are already. They will cut front line services more than they already have. Sorry but if voters think thats ok, well the voters share the same morals as the corruption in power.  

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, ml1dch said:

Well the current strategy of "we'll be a bit like the pricks in charge, just a bit less" doesn't seem to be all that successful either, with the added bonus of haemorrhaging support off the other end. 

I agree that the current strategy is Not Good, but . . .

@WhatAboutTheFinish is right to point out this is bad debate IMO. Maybe people On Here are actually doing loads of work to persuade people in their communities to vote for left-wing parties, but I kind of guess that most people are actually like me, and 'talking about stuff on VillaTalk' is pretty much the limit of their practical political engagement. Well, if it is, then is insisting on VillaTalk that people don't vote the way we want because they're 'vermin' or 'bad people' a good way to change their minds? Do we even actually think it's true, really?

I get it, people are annoyed, and want to vent about things. I'm just saying, maybe it's a mode of discussion that does far more harm than good.

[Davkaus]

The elected Tory in Hartlepool thinks "people have had enough of Labour". Voxpops of local residents saying the area is impoverished and it's Labour's fault.

It's amazing how the party that's been in government for 11 years has managed to portray themselves as the party of change.

[lapal_fan]

It all boils down to one thing really, the opposition aren't getting their point across, whatever that point even is - I don't even know what they'd want to change fundamentally with power. 

Why that is, I couldn't tell you - they have media platforms they can use, but they aren't aggressive enough (figuratively) to use it.  

I mean in the last election, Corbyn or Johnson?  REALLY? Is that the best we have to offer? 

We can blame the older people for voting tory - as generally they do - but the younger generations ain't really doing much either, are they?  In fact, I see a lot of social media guys loving turning boats of immigrants away, loving nationalistic sentiment, loving Brexit etc. 

My lad came home to me yesterday (he's 6, in year 1) saying his friend told him black people didn't exist.. I wonder where he got that from. 

As we've discussed a lot previously, there's a really nasty underbelly to the people in this country we don't get to see often, but it's definitely there. 

[chrisp65]

The trouble is, and I very much count myself in this group, the people that can’t understand why Representatives for Wellingborough vote tory, aren’t going to be able to imagine a way to win them back.

I’m very much not understanding how the majority think. But I’m ok with that, I’m happy in my own skin.

[hogso]

4 hours ago, ml1dch said:

 

 

This is a good thing for Nuneaton and Bedworth. There, I said it.

Edited May 7, 2021 by hogso

[ml1dch]

3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Well, if it is, then is insisting on VillaTalk that people don't vote the way we want because they're 'vermin' or 'bad people' a good way to change their minds? Do we even actually think it's true, really?

I don't think the people being described there are minds to be changed now. Somebody whose voting trajectory has gone Labour - UKIP - Brexit Company - Tory (which I don't think is resorting to stereotype for a huge number of these people), I don't think there is now a platform that a party with a broadly-liberal cultural outlook can offer somebody with that worldview.

As I've said before (which I recall you firmly disagreed with), the minds that need to be changed are the ones who see three left-of-centre parties squabbling over who gets to lose best with slightly different versions of the same, as being better than having those fights from a position of power. That's still not the easiest thing in the world, obviously. But in my opinion more realistic than desperately trying to claw back the ex-UKIP vote that are now voting for a party that shares their cultural values rather than (rightly, in my opinion) fights against them. 

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

38 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Since 1979 Labour have had 13 years of power, and 10 of which was Tony Blair who was barely left wing. I can't see them getting back in for at least 10 years.

The UK (well England) is by and large a solid centre right country. The post war period was just an aberration. 

Until all the non nationalist progressive parties in this country actually sit down, discard their innate tribalism, and work out a tactical way of winning elections this will never change.

The thing is, it isn't. The UK is a left leaning country economically, and right leaning socially. The Tories understand this, that's why Johnson has been nudging them left economically ever since he came in, it's why he's been nicking ideas from Labour like raising corporation tax and increasing borrowing, and it's why more traditional conservatives focus so much on culture war bullshit, because their views on the economy are unpopular. Even if the Tories are lying about what they'd do economically, they're still at least trying to appeal to people.

The problem Labour have is that those that wanted Corbyn out are essentially the inverse of the public, right leaning economically, left leaning socially,  appealing to a secure middle-class that can occupy itself with more fringe issues that as whole the electorate doesn't care about (Honestly, me, if I wasn't so tied to my left wing economic views). So they see what was actually popular about Corbyn, say "that won't do" and chuck it all out, then are shocked that no-one in the country resonates with them. It's nothing to do with progressive parties putting aside their squabbles, Labour needs to get out of it's bubble, realise it's not the 90s anymore and actually engage with people on a local level and understand the issues facing the country. At the minute the party stinks of a smug "I know better than you" attitude for basically every position on the political spectrum, if they can shift that attitude and start putting forward ideas to actually improve the country, there's no reason they can't turn it around. But it will never happen if they straight up refuse to learn the lesson that has been smacking them in the face since the EU referendum, which is stop ignoring the working class.

[ml1dch]

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by ml1dch

[HanoiVillan]

15 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

I don't think the people being described there are minds to be changed now. Somebody whose voting trajectory has gone Labour - UKIP - Brexit Company - Tory (which I don't think is resorting to stereotype for a huge number of these people), I don't think there is now a platform that a party with a broadly-liberal cultural outlook can offer somebody with that worldview.

I agree with you, but my point was less about the wider electorate and more about the very micro-level 'there are people reading this now, is this what we want to be saying to them'. Not crazy to think that there are people reading this very topical thread, both posters and lurkers, who might have voted Tory yesterday - or noted voted at all, but feel basically fine about Tory rule - who might potentially be persuadable, but who aren't going to be persuaded by being called 'vermin'.

I think I've come to believe that most canvassing is completely useless, and that the vast majority of persuasion is done away from the formal efforts of campaigning, in the arguments and discussions between friends and in places like this. I'm not saying people need to be posting detailed manifestos or twisting people's arms, but I don't think I'm suggesting a real high bar when I recommend 'don't call people vermin'.

51 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

As I've said before (which I recall you firmly disagreed with), the minds that need to be changed are the ones who see three left-of-centre parties squabbling over who gets to lose best with slightly different versions of the same, as being better than having those fights from a position of power. That's still not the easiest thing in the world, obviously. But in my opinion more realistic than desperately trying to claw back the ex-UKIP vote that are now voting for a party that shares their cultural values rather than (rightly, in my opinion) fights against them. 

You're right, I don't see this the same way. I don't believe it will ever be possible to co-ordinate this kind of rainbow coalition, and I'm not convinced it would be a good idea even if it was.

[Ingram85]

People vote for a party who go out of their way to actively try to ruin poor people’s lives while trying to befriend them and we are supposed to worry about their feelings? They might not like to hear it? Stuff ‘em.

Tory Voters: You voted for a party that made policies and decisions that led to multiple disabled people killing themselves. This wasn’t even recently. That was a line drawn and deemed as acceptable by people who voted for these evil bastards.

[The Fun Factory]

1 hour ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

The thing is, it isn't. The UK is a left leaning country economically, and right leaning socially. The Tories understand this, that's why Johnson has been nudging them left economically ever since he came in, it's why he's been nicking ideas from Labour like raising corporation tax and increasing borrowing, and it's why more traditional conservatives focus so much on culture war bullshit, because their views on the economy are unpopular. Even if the Tories are lying about what they'd do economically, they're still at least trying to appeal to people.

The problem Labour have is that those that wanted Corbyn out are essentially the inverse of the public, right leaning economically, left leaning socially,  appealing to a secure middle-class that can occupy itself with more fringe issues that as whole the electorate doesn't care about (Honestly, me, if I wasn't so tied to my left wing economic views). So they see what was actually popular about Corbyn, say "that won't do" and chuck it all out, then are shocked that no-one in the country resonates with them. It's nothing to do with progressive parties putting aside their squabbles, Labour needs to get out of it's bubble, realise it's not the 90s anymore and actually engage with people on a local level and understand the issues facing the country. At the minute the party stinks of a smug "I know better than you" attitude for basically every position on the political spectrum, if they can shift that attitude and start putting forward ideas to actually improve the country, there's no reason they can't turn it around. But it will never happen if they straight up refuse to learn the lesson that has been smacking them in the face since the EU referendum, which is stop ignoring the working class.

Not sure I entirely agree with you- I think the public would like a world class welfare system, but would baulk at paying the high taxes for it like in European Countries. Can't someone else just do it.

I think generally we are becoming more left on social matters notwithstanding some serious online issues. But that's just my opinion.

[chrisp65]

14 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

I have just deposited the ballot box at the count.  Today consisted of 60 minutes of basic admin and 3 minutes of exerting authority packed into a 17 hour day.  All to produce a result which hasn't changed significantly in living memory. 

Our democracy is wonderful but its ridiculously expensive.  

 

I’m not really expecting you to have the answer here, it’s just that you might be the only person that can vouch that there is even a rule book. So I sort of linked it.

But what would be the result of a candidate being missed off the ballot paper. But not just a candidate, the incumbent. Up in north Wales they appear to think they’ve got around the problem by telling people they could write her name in, down the bottom.

Apparently her name was also missing from some postal ballot forms.

She’s loathsome, and I can’t imagine she’d have won again. The fact nobody appears to have noticed she was missing from the postal ballot suggests there wasn’t exactly a tsunami of support. But that’s got to be a re run for that seat, hasn’t it?