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Team shape, tactics and personnel


MaVilla
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47 minutes ago, Adam2003 said:

But on what basis would you say “it sucks” - we just dominated the game with it in our last run out? And exactly as you said our full backs were the ones producing all the width with a front three all playing relatively narrow - probably coming wide more than they should have because none of them are central strikers, but now we have Samatta I think it will be easier for them to stay narrow as against Burnley. Then they can also link up with midfield to make sure we aren’t overwhelmed in the middle. In theory of course!

Yeh in theory it works. Bayern used to play the formation, and Juventus have played it in the past. When you dominate games with a lot of possession it's effective.

Because we don't dominate the possession, the formation means a lot of holes are formed in the middle of the pitch. Holes defensively, but also holes when trying to play the ball out from the back meaning mistakes are made.

Our best centre midfielder in Grealish is also shunted out wide and receives little of the ball. No doubt about it he has been effective on the left in terms of goals, but in a free role he could play through the middle primarily and drift left when required; this would then allow us to get him on the ball more in useful areas where can drive at defences.

 

I do agree with you though, Samatta up front may actually this formation along with being able to move El Ghazi back into a wide position. He ended the game against Watford well when he went out onto the wing.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Delphinho123 said:

                                          Heaton

                Konsa (CB) Engels (CB) Mings (CB)

Guilbert (WB)                                                 Targett (WB)

                   Nakamba (CM) Drinkwater (CM) 

          McGinn (AM)                          Grealish (AM)           

                                     Samatta (ST)

That is an ideal formation for us. Utilising AM's instead of LW/RW.

 

Also that front three in April 😍

 

  McGinn (AM)                          Grealish (AM)           

                          Samatta (ST)

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2 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

                                          Heaton

                Konsa (CB) Engels (CB) Mings (CB)

Guilbert (WB)                                                 Targett (WB)

                   Nakamba (CM) Drinkwater (CM) 

          McGinn (AM)                          Grealish (AM)           

                                     Samatta (ST)

That team looks good to me, especially the defence.

The only change I'd consider making, would be to put McGinn in the middle over Drinkwater, and to put El Ghazi on the wing (with Trez replacing him for his usual 30 minute cameo at the end).

I think McGinn's energy is pretty invaluable in centre-mid, so I'd rather him there than shoehorned onto the wing.

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58 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

That team looks good to me, especially the defence.

The only change I'd consider making, would be to put McGinn in the middle over Drinkwater, and to put El Ghazi on the wing (with Trez replacing him for his usual 30 minute cameo at the end).

I think McGinn's energy is pretty invaluable in centre-mid, so I'd rather him there than shoehorned onto the wing.

Get your point there, Rob. However, my understanding in this new 5-4-1 formation is that the two AM's (Grealish and McGinn in my formation) aren't asked to play on the wing by Smith. They are more inside forwards with license to drift and cause havoc when going forward. It is the Wing-Backs who provide the width and when they move forward, the centre halfs split with Drinkwater and Nakamba holding slightly to make sure we aren't hit on the counter.

I really like the idea of giving Grealish and McGinn (when fit) the license to just roam and support the striker. I'd push them both to try and score and assist 10+ a season. They're good friends, they work hard and I think they'd push each other hard. If we sign a quality inside forward in Jan/Summer, by all means, drop McGinn deeper but I think this is our best team at the moment. 

Edited by Delphinho123
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I really like the look of Delphino's formation. Relies heavily on having wingbacks that have the highest levels of fitness going,  and with limited cover for our first choice options I couldn't see it working if fred or targett got injured.

I assume we'll see something very similar in our next game,  with El Ghazi replacing McGinn.  Think that would be drinkwater's last start if he doesnt show a step up in performance and stamina. 

Edited by MrBlack
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43 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Get your point there, Rob. However, my understanding in this new 4-3-3 formation is that the two AM's (Grealish and McGinn in my formation) aren't asked to play on the wing by Smith. They are more inside forwards with license to drift and cause havoc when going forward. It is the Wing-Backs who provide the width and when they move forward, the centre halfs split with Drinkwater and Nakamba holding slightly to make sure we aren't hit on the counter.

I really like the idea of giving Grealish and McGinn (when fit) the license to just roam and support the striker. I'd push them both to try and score and assist 10+ a season. They're good friends, they work hard and I think they'd push each other hard. If we sign a quality inside forward in Jan/Summer, by all means, drop McGinn deeper but I think this is our best team at the moment. 

I see why you've gone for McGinn in that position, I just personally like to have a pacy player there because even with 2 AMs we'll still attack on the break. I feel like El Ghazi is quicker than McGinn, and I think El Ghazi has more worth to the team than Drinkwater.

I've seen Smith refer to the formation as being a front man with two number 10s behind, although that was when we had Wesley up top, so I'd imagine that won't be the case with Samatta.

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5 hours ago, wilko154 said:

Yeh in theory it works. Bayern used to play the formation, and Juventus have played it in the past. When you dominate games with a lot of possession it's effective.

Because we don't dominate the possession, the formation means a lot of holes are formed in the middle of the pitch. Holes defensively, but also holes when trying to play the ball out from the back meaning mistakes are made.

Our best centre midfielder in Grealish is also shunted out wide and receives little of the ball. No doubt about it he has been effective on the left in terms of goals, but in a free role he could play through the middle primarily and drift left when required; this would then allow us to get him on the ball more in useful areas where can drive at defences.

 

I do agree with you though, Samatta up front may actually this formation along with being able to move El Ghazi back into a wide position. He ended the game against Watford well when he went out onto the wing.

 

 

We dominated the game and had 65% possession on our last match playing it though to be fair.

Don't think we are disagreeing on the potential pros and cons - interesting to see how it develops!

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5 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

                                          Heaton

                Konsa (CB) Engels (CB) Mings (CB)

Guilbert (WB)                                                 Targett (WB)

                   Nakamba (CM) Drinkwater (CM) 

          McGinn (AM)                          Grealish (AM)           

                                     Samatta (ST)

This is what I would have (and what I think is in Smith's head as well when we have switched to this 3-4-3 (or call it whatever you want). Then we also have options of El Ghazi and Trezeguet if we need slightly more width from the front three or Luiz or Hourihane if we want to sacrifice some defensive solidity with more attacking options. Various players I name there who some rate more than others but the system works for them all.

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8 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Mings has to be central CB. 

Disagree somewhat. Think the positive thing with our current structure is depending on which CBs are fit we could play Konsa-Mings-Hause, Engels-Mings-Hause, Konsa-Engels-Mings, or even Konsa-Engels-Hause if Mings was out.

Agree with you we will be strongest with Mings as central CB but I do think the system means one injury to any of them is easily covered with a little shuffle and they each have it in their lockers to play in a couple of those positions.

Edited by Adam2003
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As much as I'd like to see an upgrade in the RW position on ElGhazi/Trez I think the current formation is the way to go if the squad remains as is.

Really wouldn't mind a more experienced CB and another LB as well.

Reina

    Konsa  Mings  Hause

  Guilbert                                      Targett

        Luiz  Nakamba 

                                                     El Ghazi                            Grealish                                                

       Samatta  

For me Drinkwater shouldn't be anywhere near the starting 11 at this time. He's shown nothing to say he's ready. Mostly terrible with hints of competence sprinkled in isn't enough to start IMO.

It's still going to be a struggle but this line up should give us a fighting chance.

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5 minutes ago, sne said:

As much as I'd like to see an upgrade in the RW position on ElGhazi/Trez I think the current formation is the way to go if the squad remains as is.

Really wouldn't mind a more experienced CB and another LB as well.

Reina

    Konsa  Mings  Hause

  Guilbert                                      Targett

        Luiz  Nakamba 

                                                     El Ghazi                            Grealish                                                

       Samatta  

For me Drinkwater shouldn't be anywhere near the starting 11 at this time. He's shown nothing to say he's ready. Mostly terrible with hints of competence sprinkled in isn't enough to start IMO.

It's still going to be a struggle but this line up should give us a fighting chance.

Probably agree with this.

McGinn for el Ghazi when fit, then the only other debate for me is Engels, but other than that I think defo strongest 11 there mate.

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Just now, MaVilla said:

Probably agree with this.

McGinn for el Ghazi when fit, then the only other debate for me is Engels, but other than that I think defo strongest 11 there mate.

Actually forgot about Engels :D 

Wonder what is going on there? For me he is probably ahead of Konsa or Hause when fit.

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I hope by the end of Jan it looks like this:

                         Reina 

           Konsa - Mings - Hause

Guilbert - Nakamba - Luiz - Targett

                  NEW  -  Grealish

                      Samatta

 

Subs: Nyland, Engels, NEW RB or LB, Drinkwater, El Ghazi, Trez, Davis.

 

Then we have McGinn to come back, and a cherrie on top would be another forward who could play striker or part of front 3.

maybe even need a new CB if we persist with a back 3 - for cover or challenge for first 11.

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2 minutes ago, sne said:

Actually forgot about Engels :D 

Wonder what is going on there? For me he is probably ahead of Konsa or Hause when fit.

Deano has said hes fit but just isnt making the match squad.

I do find that a very strange decision and wonder what is going on, for me he should at least be on the bench.

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Was thinking a lot today about the strengths and weaknesses of our 3-4-3. Main weakness is our two CMs are generally competing against three CMs, so will often be overrun (and we need to accept that). But on the other hand, any time we have the ball wide our wing backs and wide attackers should have a man over on a lot of full backs (as opposition wingers are also matched against our outside CBs) and we should also have good numbers attacking the box. We are vulnerable wide on the counter if teams get men fast forward, but should be solid through the middle.

After writing all that I realise I am not good at talking about tactics, but basically saying that if we can cope with the weaknesses the strengths should give us the basic aim of any formation - to get a man over on the opposition. 

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                            Reina 

           Konza    Engels   Mings

Fred                                                 Targs

           Luiz                          Marv

                           Jack 

             Samatta               New

 

That would be an effective solid and offensively strong lineup, with Jack centrally to be even more on the ball and dictate games.

Edited by Phil Silvers
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