Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Delphinho123]

On 30/09/2022 at 19:04, sparrow1988 said:

If Dean had stuck with the 4-2-3-1 instead of trying to crowbar Ollie and Ings into a team and a 3-5-2 then it might have ended better for him. 

I don't think this was spoken about enough at the time. 

The underlying problem he had was Ings. We'd just signed him, which was a complete and utter panic buy devoid of any common sense, and we'd put him on 125k a week. There is a demand from within the club that he therefore needs to play. Especially on that kind of money.

Smith had no idea how to fit them both in the team and tbh, nor would I - because you simply cant. Not with the personnel we have. 

Our transfer policy is a joke tbh. We bounce around signing players that don't address our needs and who best play in systems that we don't adopt. Villa need to be careful, we're heading towards a cliff edge at the moment. 

[fightoffyour]

21 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Tbf Mings has been excellent since...

Excellent player is excellent.

And McGinn is no captain. There was an incident yesterday where Young and someone else were talking to the ref before McGinn just popped his head in for a second and left. That's just one example of other players taking over the communication.

[Chicken Field]

3 hours ago, R.Bear said:

I still keep seeing posts like "with the players we have". What players are these? Our forward line is one of the worst in the league. Watkins can't finish, Ings is anonymous every game. Bailey has been shite, as has Ramsey. McGinn hasnt had a good game in years. We have some decent players but it seems Villa fans are overrating this squad to the extreme. We should be doing better yes but people need to take a moment and look at who we have actually got.

I know everyone is going to blame Gerrard of course but this isnt as good a team as people think it is at all, especially with the injuries right now.

I do to an extent agree that we have a tendency to overrate our players.

But the players you mentioned, Watkins has shown he can score goals in the league, Ings is one of the most consistent strikers in the premier league for the past many years before he joined us, (they are both former England internationals too) Buendia was in and around the Argentine national team, Coutinho needs no explanation, Bailey was one of the highest rated young winger in the world before he came here and so on.

The players are certainly not blameless but not one player has shown improvements under Gerrard and we should be doing better with the players we have. Not to mention that the more players Gerrard has signed, the worse we have looked.

[romavillan]

I don't think the system is too complicated, it is flawed but I don't think it's too complicated. I'd say it's getting coached badly, which leads to the players not being sure what to do on the ball most of the time. It's biggest flaw is covering the advanced fullbacks with the 2 8's. It doesn't work, the other teams who depend on full backs for width that start with 4 at the back have a 6 who is comfortable at centre back who drops deep and the 2 cbs cover the space left by the fullbacks. That way the 8s are still playing as midfielders and you don't have an enormous hole in the middle of the park every time possession gets turned over.

The other flaws are in the tactics of the front 3. Mostly it's all just really disjointed, too many huge gaps, never compact enough to play a possession game so we go too long.

As for Watkins and Ings being shit, they are definitely not on top form but they've been struggling for chances for ages. Watkins shoudl score at least on of the chances he had and can probably expect to be dropped but he isn't shit. Nothing about Gerrard's system gets the best out of anyone.

[TRO]

Just now, nick76 said:

So why didn’t he make subs earlier, that’s on him when he could see Ollie not doing it yesterday!  That’s on Gerrard!

Now, On that, I agree.....I don't know why, but he was salty with Ash Preece, when he asked the question, "why no Cam"........He accused Ash of being Cams mate? I thought that was funny, as I have been accused of being Gerrards mate?.......Ironic isn't it?

The problem here imo is, if we could make a hybrid of Watkins and Archer, we would possibly have a striker.

Archer has the pace and the nous to sniff out chances, but maybe not the ball holding presence of Ollie.....and vice versa.

When I say, the players are not good enough, in their present guise, I don't think they are......they all have talent of some sort, but also have gaps in that talent....not rounded enough.

Thats why, I am dubious of another manager coming in, (with out serious funds) to coach it back in to them......I think in some cases, we have the wrong players.

Just take Bailey, as one example, where is the intrinsic aggression to go with his talent?, where is the drive and determination, to cause havoc, like other premier league wingers do?

Take Watkins as the same, Toney has far more determination to make and impact and yet a similar physical status......at half the transfer fee too.....Ollie needs to be finishing much better than this, for us to have a chance of moving up the league, to a spot where we should be.

I would guess, that every effort is being made to get these guys firing.....but that front line, lacks an edge, its too easily negated, like a damp squib.

 

[TRO]

On 03/10/2022 at 13:31, CVByrne said:

That's because the majority of fans are willing to give him and the team more time. They started the season poorly with 3 points from 5 games. Now it's 5 points in 3 and only 1 goal conceded. Question is are there more steps forward in the next 3 games or just steps back? 

I am not trying to paint a picture, because no one is in the mood for it.....but this is Deans team right now, still Deans team, after 11 months in.....that could be a debate on its own.

Now the injuries are having a say in that, and that is no ones fault, but that is the facts of the matter as they stand.

If folk are saying SG should be making something of them players, that Dean couldn't.....I might tend to say, that has surprised me too, but maybe, nobody can, in terms of manager, maybe only other players can.

Ollie IMO relied on Jack putting chances on a plate, Phil is more likely to score his own goals and Emi finds it difficult to create in the same way Jack did....Bailey finds it difficult to wriggle free, to cause any chaos, and gets caught too often.

I think Ollie misses the creative force of Jack....hence his declining standards.

I think confidence needs to be restored and clean sheets, helps with that, so its a case of building that confidence, back.....and with a more clinical edge in front of goal, and sustaining the defensive prowesss, that is not beyond us.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by TRO

[Mark Albrighton]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not trying to paint a picture, because no one is in the mood for it.....but this is Deans team right now, still Deans team, after 11 months in.....that could be a debate on its own.

Now the injuries are having a say in that, and that is no ones fault, but that is the facts of the matter as they stand.

If folk are saying SG should be making something of them players, that Dean couldn't.....I might tend to say, that has surprises me too, but maybe, nobody can, in terms of manager, maybe only other players can.

Ollie IMO relied on Jack putting chances on a plate, Phil is more likely to score his own goals and Emi finds it difficult to create in the same way Jack did....Bailey finds it difficult to wriggle free, to cause any chaos, and gets caught too often.

I think Ollie misses the creative force of Jack....hence his declining standards.

I think confidence needs to be restored and clean sheets, helps with that, so its a case of building that confidence, back.....and with a more clinical edge in front of goal, and sustaining the defensive prowesss, that is not beyond us.

 

Just out of interest, when would it become Gerrard’s team?

£80m+ plus spent, three of the top earners at the club being brought in by Gerrard (Digne, Coutinho, Kamara - not sure if Carlos is on the same sort of money). Not yet his team in your opinion, ok that’s fine.

How many transfer windows, players brought in, how much money spent is it before you would consider it to be Gerrard’s team? This time next year, having spent the same again?

[CVByrne]

30 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not trying to paint a picture, because no one is in the mood for it.....but this is Deans team right now, still Deans team, after 11 months in.....that could be a debate on its own.

Now the injuries are having a say in that, and that is no ones fault, but that is the facts of the matter as they stand.

If folk are saying SG should be making something of them players, that Dean couldn't.....I might tend to say, that has surprised me too, but maybe, nobody can, in terms of manager, maybe only other players can.

Ollie IMO relied on Jack putting chances on a plate, Phil is more likely to score his own goals and Emi finds it difficult to create in the same way Jack did....Bailey finds it difficult to wriggle free, to cause any chaos, and gets caught too often.

I think Ollie misses the creative force of Jack....hence his declining standards.

I think confidence needs to be restored and clean sheets, helps with that, so its a case of building that confidence, back.....and with a more clinical edge in front of goal, and sustaining the defensive prowesss, that is not beyond us.

 

I think Liverpool are finding out that having a consistent style of play allows opponents to plan effectively about how to counter that. That's Liverpool.

I think Potter style tactical flexibility is the way to go especially for a mid table side like us. We should have a simpler style of play that is flexible between a 4 3 2 1, 4 3 1 2 and 4 2 3 1.

We should focus on opposition and setting up to beat them with flexibility of personnel and formation. Gerrard takes too much inspiration from Klopps Liverpool and trying to have complicated patterns of play and a style of play.

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I think Liverpool are finding out that having a consistent style of play allows opponents to plan effectively about how to counter that. That's Liverpool.

I think Potter style tactical flexibility is the way to go especially for a mid table side like us. We should have a simpler style of play that is flexible between a 4 3 2 1, 4 3 1 2 and 4 2 3 1.

We should focus on opposition and setting up to beat them with flexibility of personnel and formation. Gerrard takes too much inspiration from Klopps Liverpool and trying to have complicated patterns of play and a style of play.

I am more convinced, by players playing well, within themselves, and the effect they have on their opposite number, than formations.

I am not dismissing formations, merely saying formations will not negate, players, playing below standards......formations morph anyway, with the dynamics of a game....whether we are on the front foot, or back foot, the shape morphs.

i.e I don't see the grimmaces of desire on the face of Ollie, like I do Haaland or Toney, when attacking the ball....I don't see the intrinsic aggression those players muster, in their game.

Tactics are important, no doubt, but they will not make up for half hearted,passive, displays.

[TRO]

33 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I think Liverpool are finding out that having a consistent style of play allows opponents to plan effectively about how to counter that. That's Liverpool.

I think Potter style tactical flexibility is the way to go especially for a mid table side like us. We should have a simpler style of play that is flexible between a 4 3 2 1, 4 3 1 2 and 4 2 3 1.

We should focus on opposition and setting up to beat them with flexibility of personnel and formation. Gerrard takes too much inspiration from Klopps Liverpool and trying to have complicated patterns of play and a style of play.

I do worry about about that..fair comment.

I guess with McAllister, himself and Critchley, all Liverpool influenced, it could be an issue.

To be fair, the best usually do influence in most things in life, problem is right now as you say, other teams are negating them and their standards have slipped.

I have always felt Defenders defend first and attack second and attackers, attack first and defend second.....in this modern game, it seems to me, a maxim that is lost on some teams.

Imagine telling Haaland, you need to improve the defensive side of your game?.....even though at some stage Pep probably will, such is his pursuit of perfection.

I say do what you are good at, the best you can, before looking to do other things.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by TRO

[CVByrne]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I am more convinced, by players playing well, within themselves, and the effect they have on their opposite number, than formations.

I am not dismissing formations, merely saying formations will not negate, players, playing below standards......formations morph anyway, with the dynamics of a game....whether we are on the front foot, or back foot, the shape morphs.

i.e I don't see the grimmaces of desire on the face of Ollie, like I do Haaland or Toney, when attacking the ball....I don't see the intrinsic aggression those players muster, in their game.

Tactics are important, no doubt, but they will not make up for half hearted,passive, displays.

The thing is if the team are focussed on playing the way they are told to play they're not playing their natural game or the game they are best suited to. 

Are Ramsey and McGinn suited to covering full backs? Is Watkins suited to finishing off chances? Is Cash suited to being a wide forward? 

I would look at players attributes and select a team to maximise their effectiveness. 

Let's start with Watkins, he is excellent as a lone CF in holding up play, occupying CBs, running and pressing. He's not great at finishing chances. So he needs support from others to score those chances. 

The way to do that is have attacking 8s getting into the half spaces to finish chances or by having a goal scoring 10 or goal scoring inside forwards. 

We look at who we have, Coutinho and Buendia are creative forwards and Bailey is a winger. Ings is our best finisher and is best as a 2nd striker in the hole. 

So you then look at a midfield setup of 3 with two attacking 8s and fullbacks covering them. Alternatively you go with a 4 2 3 1 and have JJ or Ings as the 10 to take on goal scoring responsibility with Coutinho Buendia or Bailey in wide spaces. 

The back 4 is a back 4. How the full backs attack depends of formation. 4 2 3 1 and one needs to attack and the other tucks in. While two attacking 8s and the full backs need to cover them or attack if the 8 sits.

This is assessing the squad and individual players strengths and structuring play best suited to them. 

Gerrard isn't doing that. He's taking the approach of Klopp. I've a set way I want my teams to play and we need players to fit into that specific way. Signed specifically for the system. This csn work of you're one of the top teams. It doesn't work if you're a rookie manager with a mid table side.

 

 

 

 

[CVByrne]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I do worry about about that..fair comment.

I guess with McAllister, himself and Critchley, all Liverpool influenced, it could be an issue.

To be fair, the best usually do influence in most things in life, problem is right now as you say, other teams are negating them and their standards have slipped.

I have always felt Defenders defend first and attack second and attackers, attack first and defend second.....in this modern game, it seems to me, a maxim that is lost on some teams.

Imagine telling Haaland, you need to improve the defensive side of your game?.....even though at some stage Pep probably will, such is his pursuit of perfection.

I say do what you are good at, the best you can, before looking to do other things.

 

I think people are taking a lot from Ancelotti about how when you've got elite players you can focus on countering opponents strengths and then let your players work it out from there. So coaches giving back a bit more control to the players. 

[IrishVilla10]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Tactics are important, no doubt, but they will not make up for half hearted,passive, displays.

Which players of ours would you accuse of this? 

[TRO]

26 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

The thing is if the team are focussed on playing the way they are told to play they're not playing their natural game or the game they are best suited to. 

Are Ramsey and McGinn suited to covering full backs? Is Watkins suited to finishing off chances? Is Cash suited to being a wide forward? 

I would look at players attributes and select a team to maximise their effectiveness. 

Let's start with Watkins, he is excellent as a lone CF in holding up play, occupying CBs, running and pressing. He's not great at finishing chances. So he needs support from others to score those chances. 

The way to do that is have attacking 8s getting into the half spaces to finish chances or by having a goal scoring 10 or goal scoring inside forwards. 

We look at who we have, Coutinho and Buendia are creative forwards and Bailey is a winger. Ings is our best finisher and is best as a 2nd striker in the hole. 

So you then look at a midfield setup of 3 with two attacking 8s and fullbacks covering them. Alternatively you go with a 4 2 3 1 and have JJ or Ings as the 10 to take on goal scoring responsibility with Coutinho Buendia or Bailey in wide spaces. 

The back 4 is a back 4. How the full backs attack depends of formation. 4 2 3 1 and one needs to attack and the other tucks in. While two attacking 8s and the full backs need to cover them or attack if the 8 sits.

This is assessing the squad and individual players strengths and structuring play best suited to them. 

Gerrard isn't doing that. He's taking the approach of Klopp. I've a set way I want my teams to play and we need players to fit into that specific way. Signed specifically for the system. This csn work of you're one of the top teams. It doesn't work if you're a rookie manager with a mid table side.

 

 

 

 

Let me respond line by line :

• I accept that, but he must surely be aware of their natural attributes, and if necessary, they have to flexible enough to adapt.
• Not in favour of that, at all....something, I am opposed to SG doing.....they are not naturally gifted to do that.
• I agree wholeheartedly....110% agree
• I like Ollie, I really do, and his hold up play, is an asset.....but on its own, its not enough at this level, he must be more rounded and complete, to be commanding such a position in a big club.
• we can have 8's, 10's and 6's.....but they have to do what it says on the tin.....our players are good at somethings and not so good at others.....we need more rounded and consistent players to dominate the ball, and their position in the team.
• Coutinho and Buendia are fine players.....but they do not stay on the ball like Jack, they are too easily negated, great on their day, but struggle with a spirited press....Ings is not effective enough at what he does best......Bailey, is equally, too easily beaten, has the odd moment, its not enough, he needs to worry opponents and he doesn't.
• I would tend to go with 4-2-3-1....but I accept all managers live of die, by their decisions....I would guess most fans would be divided on what our best midfield line up is.
• For me, The back 4 has picked up, but I am not in favour of 2 attack minded full backs, I am more inclined to favour an asymettrical system of one being attack minded and one being more defensive.....I also like my centre backs to be dominant in the air, to add to their ground work, which is essential.
• I agree
• I think SG is doing some things ok, and others, I am not in favour of........but I don't subscribe to all things being shit.

Personally, I think the approach to the Bournemouth game was totally naive and disrespectful to Bournemouth, that result and performance sent shockwaves through the club and its been hard to recover and momentum from the summer.....The ommission of Mings was also a huge factor, in getting that game wrong.....I don't think its been as easy as some think to recover from that, even if we think we should.

Whether he stays or goes.....we need to stay with it, otherwise the whole things becomes a drag.

Maybe, I am in my mellow years, but I have more to lose than most, I haven't got the time of the 40's and 50's folk.....but let me tell you, as a fan who was in Rotterdam, there has been more downs than ups.....and I am not sure if some would have supported Ron Saunders football and that is not me being smug.

I think some of us, need to respect the opposition more and the prospect of following Villa, will be more measured.

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Which players of ours would you accuse of this? 

All those that are not effective.....after a game, ask yourself the question of every player, what have you really done, to effect the game, have the opposition found you hard to play against.....you might find the answer.

Ollie is quite easy to target.....but others find it easy to go through a game, with questionable effect.

Right now, I would say Tyrone Mings is ironically, by far our best player......we need those performances, up front too.

 

[IrishVilla10]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

All those that are not effective.....after a game, ask yourself the question of every player, what have you really done, to effect the game, have the opposition found you hard to play against.....you might find the answer.

Ollie is quite easy to target.....but others find it easy to go through a game, with questionable effect.

Right now, I would say Tyrone Mings is ironically, by far our best player......we need those performances, up front too.

 

This is all pointing towards the manager for me. 

[RichiBoi11]

On 30/09/2022 at 18:11, TRO said:

I agree with the 4-2-3-1

but managers do what managers do, its their job on the line.....I would hope the opposition, would influence, how we set up.......but its down to the players to deliver.

I don't remember, from the past, managers being criticised as much about formations......IIRC didn't Dean play 4-3-3, before he settled on 4-2-3-1 and that didn't end well either did it?

Deano played around with a few formations to be fair. We were 4-3-3 for a majority of his time, but he did switch to a back 3 when we were really struggling. Also the season he did play 4-2-3-1 actually turned out to be our best season, finishing 11th. It fell apart a bit at the end, but I think that was down to the fact it relied on Grealish and Barkely both being ball carriers in the three behind Watkins, and when both were unavailable and Barley lost his form the system fell apart a bit. I think what frustrates me is when managers down't play to their players strengths, and formations are a key component of that in the modern game. You need to be adaptable, but you also need to recognise youer squads strengths and weaknesses, which is something Gerrard doesn't seem very adept at as it stands. 

[duke313]

13 minutes ago, RichiBoi11 said:

Deano played around with a few formations to be fair. We were 4-3-3 for a majority of his time, but he did switch to a back 3 when we were really struggling. Also the season he did play 4-2-3-1 actually turned out to be our best season, finishing 11th. It fell apart a bit at the end, but I think that was down to the fact it relied on Grealish and Barkely both being ball carriers in the three behind Watkins, and when both were unavailable and Barley lost his form the system fell apart a bit. I think what frustrates me is when managers down't play to their players strengths, and formations are a key component of that in the modern game. You need to be adaptable, but you also need to recognise youer squads strengths and weaknesses, which is something Gerrard doesn't seem very adept at as it stands. 

I can't remember where I read the quote, or who said it but it was something like - "formations are neutral, it's their application that gives them positive or negative qualities" - This was evident last night in the City game where they switched from a 433 to 442 with no impact whatsoever on their style of play.

[RichiBoi11]

52 minutes ago, duke313 said:

I can't remember where I read the quote, or who said it but it was something like - "formations are neutral, it's their application that gives them positive or negative qualities" - This was evident last night in the City game where they switched from a 433 to 442 with no impact whatsoever on their style of play.

Whoever said this is wise beyond their years.

[MarkLillis]

On 04/10/2022 at 16:05, TRO said:

I am not trying to paint a picture, because no one is in the mood for it.....but this is Deans team right now, still Deans team, after 11 months in.....that could be a debate on its own.

Now the injuries are having a say in that, and that is no ones fault, but that is the facts of the matter as they stand.

If folk are saying SG should be making something of them players, that Dean couldn't.....I might tend to say, that has surprised me too, but maybe, nobody can, in terms of manager, maybe only other players can.

Ollie IMO relied on Jack putting chances on a plate, Phil is more likely to score his own goals and Emi finds it difficult to create in the same way Jack did....Bailey finds it difficult to wriggle free, to cause any chaos, and gets caught too often.

I think Ollie misses the creative force of Jack....hence his declining standards.

I think confidence needs to be restored and clean sheets, helps with that, so its a case of building that confidence, back.....and with a more clinical edge in front of goal, and sustaining the defensive prowesss, that is not beyond us.

 

Reading this it’s sounds more like Jacks team than Deans!

God knows I wish Jack had been a Villa fan…..he might have stayed and fought with us