Team shape, tactics and personnel

[MaVilla]

8 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

This is more or less how we set up on Sunday isn’t it  

yeah, although the previous 2 games were 433, so i was saying i prefer the 4231.

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 hours ago, MaVilla said:

yeah, although the previous 2 games were 433, so i was saying i prefer the 4231.

But what’s the difference mate?

isnt a 4231 just a 433 but with 2 of the midfields told to always hold?

[MaVilla]

10 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

But what’s the difference mate?

isnt a 4231 just a 433 but with 2 of the midfields told to always hold?

not really no?

All formations are marginally different. (although not as rigid as the old skool days ofc)

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

not really no?

All formations are marginally different. (although not as rigid as the old skool days ofc)

So what’s the difference ? Between 4231 and 433 with 2 holding midfields?

[sir_gary_cahill]

4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

So what’s the difference ? Between 4231 and 433 with 2 holding midfields?

In my opinion and I could be wrong on this but in a 4-2-3-1, the midfield 3 have less defensive responsibilities than in a 4-3-3

[MaVilla]

9 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

So what’s the difference ? Between 4231 and 433 with 2 holding midfields?

the problem with the difference is it could be huge differences or marginal differences depending on how each formation is used by the coach??

generally speaking, a 4-3-3 has 2 x 8's alongisde a 6. the 8's are more responsible for both the attacking and defensive phases, kind of like a box to box maybe, where the single 6 sits more, this scenario "might" mean in theory the 6 can be more exposed at times, or it may not be depending on how the team is set up.

a 4-2-3-1 has 2 x 6s, which might be in a pivot where they rotate going forward, but they might not, they might just be 2 6's, where the 10 in the AM role has a bit more freedom to go forward, or they might not depending on how the formation is setup?

both formations will have some sort of wide AMs/wingers, which may or may not be wider or more inside.

a 4-2-3-1 on paper should be more solid defensively with 2 x 6's, BUT the 4-3-3 might actually be better defensively if you have high class players and the 8's can fully contribute to defensive phases when needed??

Im sure there are a million other nuances that i just cant cover or dont know?

Im trying to speak with a "rule of thumb", but there is no way i can cover it all, or be right in all cases, or explain all cases, as formations are more fluid than a set XXX formation.

But, generally speaking, a 4231 is more solid defensively, and as long as you have good attacking players it can be a good and balanced formation, a pure 433 can generally be better going forward, but can also be good defensively IF you have the right players, if you dont have the right players a 433 can be more easily exposed as if the 8's arent work horses they can leave the 6 badly exposed.

Also, a 433 could also actually be better defensively and attacking than a 4321 IF you have very high class players who can contribute to all phases, but also a 433 is also a formation that can easily fall apart if you dont have the right calibre of players, where a 4231 can be a bit more forgiving, in theory.

i really didnt want to answer this question because the variances, differences, pros and cons can be nothing, they could be marginal, they could be a lot, the roles used could be entirely different to what i mentioned depending on what the coach actually does with the formation?

my point was, that i think a 4231 with Luiz and McGinn in a pivot would give us good defensive solidity, while having grealish, barkley, traore and watkins in a 3-1 i think would give us good attacking impetus, especially knowing mcginn could burst forward at times to support and still have the energy to fulfill his defensive responsibilities, obviously this also doest take away from the requirement of the forward players to press and hustle?........man......i shouldnt have even tried to answer this

basically.......wrongly or rightly, its my opinion.

Edited October 10, 2020 by MaVilla

[Vive_La_Villa]

19 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

the problem with the difference is it could be huge differences or marginal differences depending on how each formation is used by the coach??

generally speaking, a 4-3-3 has 2 x 8's alongisde a 6. the 8's are more responsible for both the attacking and defensive phases, kind of like a box to box maybe, where the single 6 sits more, this scenario "might" mean in theory the 6 can be more exposed at times, or it may not be depending on how the team is set up.

a 4-2-3-1 has 2 x 6s, which might be in a pivot where they rotate going forward, but they might not, they might just be 2 6's, where the 10 in the AM role has a bit more freedom to go forward, or they might not depending on how the formation is setup?

both formations will have some sort of wide AMs/wingers, which may or may not be wider or more inside.

a 4-2-3-1 on paper should be more solid defensively with 2 x 6's, BUT the 4-3-3 might actually be better defensively if you have high class players and the 8's can fully contribute to defensive phases when needed??

Im sure there are a million other nuances that i just cant cover or dont know?

Im trying to speak with a "rule of thumb", but there is no way i can cover it all, or be right in all cases, or explain all cases, as formations are more fluid than a set XXX formation.

But, generally speaking, a 4231 is more solid defensively, and as long as you have good attacking players it can be a good and balanced formation, a pure 433 can generally be better going forward, but can also be good defensively IF you have the right players, if you dont have the right players a 433 can be more easily exposed as if the 8's arent work horses they can leave the 6 badly exposed.

Also, a 433 could also actually be better defensively and attacking than a 4321 IF you have very high class players who can contribute to all phases, but also a 433 is also a formation that can easily fall apart if you dont have the right calibre of players, where a 4231 can be a bit more forgiving, in theory.

i really didnt want to answer this question because the variances, differences, pros and cons can be nothing, they could be marginal, they could be a lot, the roles used could be entirely different to what i mentioned depending on what the coach actually does with the formation?

my point was, that i think a 4231 with Luiz and McGinn in a pivot would give us good defensive solidity, while having grealish, barkley, traore and watkins in a 3-1 i think would give us good attacking impetus, especially knowing mcginn could burst forward at times to support and still have the energy to fulfill his defensive responsibilities, obviously this also doest take away from the requirement of the forward players to press and hustle?........man......i shouldnt have even tried to answer this

basically.......wrongly or rightly, its my opinion.

So basically you want Mcginn to stay the hell back and let Barkley do those overlapping forward runs?

I for one agree with you sir.

[MaVilla]

8 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

So basically you want Mcginn to stay the hell back and let Barkley do those overlapping forward runs?

I for one agree with you sir.

no no, i want mcginn to play deeper alongisde luiz, becuase i think mcginns overall game suits him sitting deeper and bursting forward, but i also want him to run up and down the pitch like a mad man, supporting attacking plays BUT also fulfilling his defensive duties like a scottish superman (aka. Super John McGinn)

Edited October 10, 2020 by MaVilla

[Kiwivillan]

4231 is a 433 just denoting double pivot with CAM in front. It's still 433

[MaVilla]

8 hours ago, Kiwivillan said:

4231 is a 433 just denoting double pivot with CAM in front. It's still 433

but how they operate can be entirely different. (can....not are, but can)

[Kiwivillan]

2 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

but how they operate can be entirely different. (can....not are, but can)

[barry'sboots]

4 hours ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

In my opinion and I could be wrong on this but in a 4-2-3-1, the midfield 3 have less defensive responsibilities than in a 4-3-3

I would disagree with this.  I think it all depends upon who your players are and how you play them. 

The season before we were relegated we played 4-3-3 and it worked well because Delph and Cleverly were both really suited to that role/both no. 8's who could push on that bit more and get in the box but could both also get back.  The season after we still played it and the various managers were asking Geuye to play like Delph and it just didn't suit him.  He is more of a sitter that can get forward.

We could play a 4-2-3-1 with Luiz, McGinn and Barkley and that is pretty offensive as Luiz, as the most defensive of the 3 CM's, is still pretty progressive, SJM can certainly burst forward and Barkley, as we saw against Liverpool, can excel as a proper 10 carrying the ball forward and driving at the opposition.  I think the 4-2-3-1 really suits these three and allows them all to play to their strengths.  Alternatively, we could play with Nakamba and Luiz as the two sitting and that would be much more defensive as Nakamba rarely breaks forward and Luiz is not as offensively dynamic as SJM, but if you did that you would probably give Barkley, or whoever was playing as the most advanced of the CM'ers/a 10, a completely free licence to push on.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Call it 433 or 4321 the fact of the matter is we have better players than last season. Even the ones that played last season have a years Premier League experience and are better than they were. That is why we’ll have a good season. 

[Kiwivillan]

The only difference between 433 and 4231 we've played is Hourihane vs Barkley. Barkley plays ahead of the double pivot in #10 but the front 3 in 433 of Grealish Watkins Trezeguet remains unchanged in 4231

[MrBlack]

Ahh, the days when we were minutes away from oblivion,  had lost a record number of games, had a toxic club environment and were an embarrassment to our clubs once great name.

I'm glad we can now discuss the finer topics in football about how 4231 and 433 are different. Good times are back.

[gaffer85]

Just wondering what do people think our best team shape and personal is

 

When you look at the way we played at the start of the season to now what had changed?

To me at the start of the season we had Barkley grealish and trez with mcginn and luiz behind, I think for Barkley to play we need trez instead of Bert to do the donkey work 

To me our best spell was December when Jack, Anwar and Bert were playing with mcginn and luiz in behind, that attacking trio is more interchangeable thus causing more issues for the defensive team

To me we can't have Bert and ross at the same time as they are both luxury players

If you were to pick our strongest 11 what would it be?

[Villaphan04]

I definitely want to see Anwar-Jack-Traore at some point again. 

 

[villalad21]

Just get Grealish back fit again and things will be ok.

Doesn't matter what the rest of the team is.

[gaffer85]

1 minute ago, Villaphan04 said:

I definitely want to see Anwar-Jack-Traore at some point again. 

 

I really thought we had found stumbled onto something but as soon as ross was back Anwar was left out also because it is so interchangeable they can't double up on jack

[gaffer85]

2 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Just get Grealish back fit again and things will be ok.

Doesn't matter what the rest of the team is.

Yes but you have to pick a team that makes him more influential than he already is