BOF Posted February 22, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2021 1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said: There are some real messes of formations being suggested here. As much as we need energy, I don't think that Luiz, McGinn, Nakamba, Ramsey or Barkley can play as a wider midfielder - Sanson might be able to play on the right at a push, but playing five of those would just end up with a mess in the middle of the park, fullbacks under pressure and a big clump of nothing on the edge of our box. I think just one change - either Ramsey or Sanson in for Barkley - playing slightly deeper and allowing the whole midfield a bit more freedom as they can cover for each other would be transformative. My preference would be to bring Traore into the Barkley spot and put Trez on the right. Traore has that cockiness where he will relish being the main man in Jack's absence and he'll feel he can do that. Plus he has a very good strike rate. Put him in a more prominent role and bring Trez; who was unlucky to be dropped in the first place; back in which also helps Elmo out at the back with Trez's running. I'm not going to go clamouring for Sanson until I know what role he plays in midfield. I've heard everything from the Marvelous to the McGinn to the Barkley role, so we've either bought the next Keane/Essien or else some people on the internet are pretending they know more than they do. I doubt that's the case though... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 22, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2021 15 minutes ago, BOF said: My preference would be to bring Traore into the Barkley spot and put Trez on the right. Traore has that cockiness where he will relish being the main man in Jack's absence and he'll feel he can do that. Plus he has a very good strike rate. Put him in a more prominent role and bring Trez; who was unlucky to be dropped in the first place; back in which also helps Elmo out at the back with Trez's running. I'm not going to go clamouring for Sanson until I know what role he plays in midfield. I've heard everything from the Marvelous to the McGinn to the Barkley role, so we've either bought the next Keane/Essien or else some people on the internet are pretending they know more than they do. I doubt that's the case though... You see for me it's the Barkley role that is spoiling the shape - and I think Traore is currently both stronger at the strong bits than Barkley and weaker at the weak bits - if anything, he's Barkley to an extreme. Against Leeds you'd be looking at Traore as protecting McGinn and Luiz, nullifying Phillips and Klich and occupying the middle of the park - I don't think he'd have any hope of getting within a gnats knacker of doing that, and whilst I think he's creative and has the flair to do the other job, I don't think we can carry him - we can't carry Barkley and he'd be if anything worse at the work part of being a central midfielder. My preference is bring no one into the Barkley spot and move it further back, I think if we do that, we give licence to McGinn and Luiz to come further out and have a midfield that occupies more of the pitch. I think there are a couple of choices to be made in terms of whether it should be Trez or El Ghazi (El Ghazi for me) and whether it should be Elmo or Kesler (I give Elmo another go) but on the Barkley one, I think it would be completely foolish to continue with him, but also not a good idea to try for a like-for-like replacement. For me, the Barkley role works in two situations - where we don''t have the wingers and play a 4-3-1-2 with Barkley/Traore as the 1 ( which I don't think Smith will ever do and it would mean starting Davis) or without Watkins as a 4-3-3 with the Barkley/Traore as a false nine (which would be insanity). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted February 22, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2021 12 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: You see for me it's the Barkley role that is spoiling the shape - and I think Traore is currently both stronger at the strong bits than Barkley and weaker at the weak bits - if anything, he's Barkley to an extreme. Against Leeds you'd be looking at Traore as protecting McGinn and Luiz, nullifying Phillips and Klich and occupying the middle of the park - I don't think he'd have any hope of getting within a gnats knacker of doing that, and whilst I think he's creative and has the flair to do the other job, I don't think we can carry him - we can't carry Barkley and he'd be if anything worse at the work part of being a central midfielder. My preference is bring no one into the Barkley spot and move it further back, I think if we do that, we give licence to McGinn and Luiz to come further out and have a midfield that occupies more of the pitch. I think there are a couple of choices to be made in terms of whether it should be Trez or El Ghazi (El Ghazi for me) and whether it should be Elmo or Kesler (I give Elmo another go) but on the Barkley one, I think it would be completely foolish to continue with him, but also not a good idea to try for a like-for-like replacement. For me, the Barkley role works in two situations - where we don''t have the wingers and play a 4-3-1-2 with Barkley/Traore as the 1 ( which I don't think Smith will ever do and it would mean starting Davis) or without Watkins as a 4-3-3 with the Barkley/Traore as a false nine (which would be insanity). Yeah makes sense. I'm not against going back to a 4-3-3. I think in reality the difference between 4231 and 433 is just down to personnel anyway rather than any profound tactical difference. They both have 1 forward and 2 wide men. They just deploy their centre mids slightly differently on Sky's pre-match graphic. Once you're on the pitch it's up to the individuals to do their thang. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 22, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, BOF said: Yeah makes sense. I'm not against going back to a 4-3-3. I think in reality the difference between 4231 and 433 is just down to personnel anyway rather than any profound tactical difference. They both have 1 forward and 2 wide men. They just deploy their centre mids slightly differently on Sky's pre-match graphic. Once you're on the pitch it's up to the individuals to do their thang. Agreed. I think the problem we've had is that Barkley is the wrong side of the opposition midfield when they get the ball - so McGinn and Luiz are immediately exposed - they can't come out because there would be a massive space between them, so they take up a position in front of the CB's forming a little box - that leaves the opposition with complete control of the middle of the park - he played against Leicester with Tielemans and Ndidi behind him so they they had no obstacle immediately in front of them unless Luiz and McGinn stepped out - but stepping out left a great big hole for Maddison. I'd like that third midfielder to be goal side of Tielemans and Ndidi / Phillips and Klich, so that there's an immediate pressure on them when they play out from the break or our attacks break down. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 9 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: For me, the Barkley role works in two situations - where we don''t have the wingers and play a 4-3-1-2 with Barkley/Traore as the 1 ( which I don't think Smith will ever do and it would mean starting Davis) or without Watkins as a 4-3-3 with the Barkley/Traore as a false nine (which would be insanity). I think he'll go back to 4231 again. Must admit I didn't really notice it against Leicester, but that was very much a 433 with McGinn's average position ending up further up than Barkley. Maybe there was a switch at HT or after Barkley went off. The other reason for 4231 is the right royal rogering we got from Leeds in October which fell into more of a 433 as well, perhaps through us being under pressure on the ball... I think we'll see two proper sitting midfielders and Ollie will have to bust his gut more than usual as he's going to be isolated. However, as I'm saying that I just can't see Dean Smith thinking this way. He wants to attack. He wants support for attackers, which is why Barkley keeps playing. Feck knows what we'll do. Kesler, McGinn, Nakamba, Trez and Sanson would all start for me, Elmo, Luiz, Barkley and El Ghazi dropping out. The added holding midfielder would help out Kesler as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 22, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2021 Our problem is that our 4-2-3-1 has been looking like 4-2-4 far too often and we've then been outnumbered in midfield. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Our problem is that our 4-2-3-1 has been looking like 4-2-4 far too often and we've then been outnumbered in midfield. I agree. Hopefully slightly less when Trez has started? And again hopefully, Sanson won't be wandering round just behind Ollie wondering why the other team are storming past him towards our goal. Trez left, Sanson middle, Traore right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Don't care who plays, how they play, how the team plays, what the formation is, just win the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WakefieldVillan Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 4 hours ago, WakefieldVillan said: F*** it - Let's press high, loads of energy and beat the dirty words removed 12-7. Emi Konsa Luiz Mings Sanson Nakamba McGinn Targett Ramsey Traore Watkins 3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: There are some real messes of formations being suggested here. As much as we need energy, I don't think that Luiz, McGinn, Nakamba, Ramsey or Barkley can play as a wider midfielder - Sanson might be able to play on the right at a push, but playing five of those would just end up with a mess in the middle of the park, fullbacks under pressure and a big clump of nothing on the edge of our box. I think just one change - either Ramsey or Sanson in for Barkley - playing slightly deeper and allowing the whole midfield a bit more freedom as they can cover for each other would be transformative. I guess that's aimed at me to be honest I didn't expect A) anyone to agree with it or B ) it having any sort of possibility of happening. My real worry is Elmo at RB - He was shocking yesterday and I fear the same next week up against Harrison. I suppose we have to hope that it was down to limited game time and after the 90 minutes under his belt, we may see an improved performance. I also think it would be a tough debut for Kesler. The loss of Cash is a big blow no doubt. I would love us to try a different formation and personnel - If it doesn't work then so be it - We aren't going down so not the end of the world - but I feel it will be pretty much the same team and we will look turgid (obviously hope i'm wrong!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 If Hause is fit I'd bring him in and play Konsa RB. I think I'd do it even with Engels I think. Cash got put under severe pressure last game. Elmo won't get close enough to them to even get booked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 If Barkley starts, we're getting dicked. We need to match their energy to stand a chance. I hope Deano has learned something from the last 3 games against Bielsa's Leeds. We match up horribly with them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam2003 Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 4 hours ago, Tomaszk said: Must admit I didn't really notice it against Leicester, but that was very much a 433 with McGinn's average position ending up further up than Barkley. Maybe there was a switch at HT or after Barkley went off. Nah I think it was throughout - I was very surprised watching it and assumed it was a tactical decision that Barkley sat deep with McGinn further forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 8 hours ago, WakefieldVillan said: F*** it - Let's press high, loads of energy and beat the dirty words removed 12-7. Emi Konsa Luiz Mings Sanson Nakamba McGinn Targett Ramsey Traore Watkins Strangest line up I have seen in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 This is a defining game for rest of the season. Ok we are not in any trouble but we are showing signs of creaking in recent games. We just cant start this game how we did against leicester, Brighton and west Ham. We need to be at it from the beginning. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Didn't Realise they play Southampton on Tuesday first so hopefully we will be fresher. Emi Elmo Konsa Mings Targett Luiz Trez Traore Sanson El Ghazi Watkins 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 48 minutes ago, PaulC said: This is a defining game for rest of the season. Ok we are not in any trouble but we are showing signs of creaking in recent games. We just cant start this game how we did against leicester, Brighton and west Ham. We need to be at it from the beginning. The only way we can achieve this is by at least benching Barkley although I'd recommend doing the same with McGinn too. Get two hungrier and more energetic players with a point to prove in the midfield. Two of Ramsey, Nakamba and Sanson in to give us something extra. Our midfield has been our downfall for too long now, we must surely change it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robby b Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Kingman said: Didn't Realise they play Southampton on Tuesday first so hopefully we will be fresher. Emi Elmo Konsa Mings Targett Luiz Trez Traore Sanson El Ghazi Watkins I like this line-up, with two changes, not just one, from the last match. I think Sanson really should be given a start, finally, following our recent two and a half rubbish performances. And Trez might as well be given another chance, shake things up a bit, we can't be much worse than those games against West Ham or Brighton, or the first half against Leicester. And McGinn's shooting used to be good when we were in the Championship, unfortunately it hasn't been good this season. I don't understand why it has gone downhill, considering some of his passing earlier this season was very good, very accurate. Sorry if this has been mentioned numerous times already in several threads, but I do wonder if Barkley and McGinn were two of the players who got covid, and if they were ill with it (i.e. symptomatic). Edited February 23, 2021 by robby b 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 On 21/02/2021 at 16:24, VillaChris said: Simply need to pick as many players as we can who can get up and down the pitch and nulify Leeds. Don't and it will go same way of home game e.g. what we started with today. It's important to get something as we now have Sheffield United away in the midweek following so chance to keep in touch with those above. I suspect we'll do enough for a point in a fiery game like last time we went up there although don't think we'll be allowed to walk in a goal this time. They will run the legs off us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturdaygig Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Kingman said: Didn't Realise they play Southampton on Tuesday first so hopefully we will be fresher. Emi Elmo Konsa Mings Targett Luiz Trez Traore Sanson El Ghazi Watkins So the only way out of defence is the long ball. No thanks. We need a midfield, that's what we've been lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyp Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 I'd really love to stuff this lot. They've been a right nuisance to play for a good while, truth be told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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