The Midfield Three

[nepal_villan]

Changing out Barkley seems the most logical solution. Also bringing in Trez can play help solidify us defensively. 

[villalad21]

6 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Brazil's last game (beat Uruguay 2-0).

The people who constantly question whether Douglas Luiz is a DM are missing the point... there are two types of deep-lying midfielder. He is a ball player - a la Xabi Alonso, Pirlo, Carrick, etc - who still has good defensive instincts. Some games you might need more of a destroyer in there. It doesn't mean he can't play DM or that it isn't his natural position.

We've had a great season so far, beating teams like Liverpool, Arsenal (first time), Leicester with Douglas Luiz at DM. And he's 22 years old ffs - his form's obviously going to dip occasionally.

The issue right now is that Barkley is playing as an old fashioned 10 and seems short of fitness (or motivation?), meaning we really have a 4-4-2, and our midfield is getting overrun. I don't think the introduction of Nakamba today did anything to fix that really. It was Ramsey coming on for Barkley that suddenly tightened things up in the middle.

Luiz is losing too many 50/50 duels for me to play in the 6 role. Against West Ham he got bullied out of the game. Not because he is a bad player but because Rice and Soucek is just bigger and stronger than him. He is too lightweight.

The players you mentioned. I can't remember Carrick or Xabi Alonso being small players and struggling with the physicality. Did you see Soucek being aggressive, winning the ball off Watkins leading to a goal. That's what a DM should do. Luiz is too passive.

Where Luiz strenght is when he is getting into advanced positions. Remember his goals last season. Watch his assist for Grealish against Burnley. That's what he will do if played further up the pitch.

Edited February 7, 2021 by villalad21

[Greenfly]

The midfield three shouldn't pick itself imo. It should be rotated depending on what we need them to do in order to cope with the next opponent.

Top teams can impose their style on anyone and play however they like, but we're not quite a top team yet. We're still at that point where the way we set up should be in response to what other teams above us usually do.

I don't get the impression that's what we're doing. Smith has his way of playing, and he sets up to do it every time. That's fine and all, but it could be what keeps us from gatecrashing Europe this season.

[Kiwivillan]

We're in a good position. Our midfield depth is relatively decent regardless of what some doom merchants say. Nakamba did a job and I kind of wanted him to start vs Arsenal. Let's not lose our minds when result doesn't go our way. Some mad results being thrown up across the board every week

[cheltenham_villa]

4 hours ago, nepal_villan said:

Changing out Barkley seems the most logical solution. Also bringing in Trez can play help solidify us defensively. 

Do we need to be more solid defensively? How many clean sheets have we kept? Weve got to balance both parts of the pitch and Ramsey/trez will not contribute the same goals and assists as Barkley/traore.

Look at the impact Barkleys positioning has on Watkins, he spends less time wondering about in the channels and more time in the box. No surprise that hes started scoring again.

[MattVillaPortsmouth]

1 hour ago, Greenfly said:

The midfield three shouldn't pick itself imo. It should be rotated depending on what we need them to do in order to cope with the next opponent.

Top teams can impose their style on anyone and play however they like, but we're not quite a top team yet. We're still at that point where the way we set up should be in response to what other teams above us usually do.

I don't get the impression that's what we're doing. Smith has his way of playing, and he sets up to do it every time. That's fine and all, but it could be what keeps us from gatecrashing Europe this season.

Totally this - our best midfield 3 should not be set in stone, it should be adaptive depending on opposition, fitness, game plan , form (yes there are times when other factors affect a player) etc - 6,8,10s

We have finally amassed a good group of players here now, with some good young talent coming through.

[KentVillan]

5 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Luiz is losing too many 50/50 duels for me to play in the 6 role. Against West Ham he got bullied out of the game. Not because he is a bad player but because Rice and Soucek is just bigger and stronger than him. He is too lightweight.

The players you mentioned. I can't remember Carrick or Xabi Alonso being small players and struggling with the physicality. Did you see Soucek being aggressive, winning the ball off Watkins leading to a goal. That's what a DM should do. Luiz is too passive.

Where Luiz strenght is when he is getting into advanced positions. Remember his goals last season. Watch his assist for Grealish against Burnley. That's what he will do if played further up the pitch.

Don’t shift the goalposts. You’ve made a nonsense point about Luiz not playing DM for Brazil (he does), and now you’re talking more nonsense. Luiz has scored a couple of hits and that makes him an attacking midfielder!?

Have you ever watched Carrick or Xabi Alonso? They weren’t big physical workhorses - they played alongside people who were.

There will be some games where Luiz might benefit from a more physical player next to him (Casemiro, Nakamba, etc) there will be others (Liverpool, Leicester, Arsenal...) where he does just fine by himself.

I just really find this obsession some people have with Luiz not being a DM baffling. It’s like they can’t process the idea of a DM who has a good touch.

[nepal_villan]

4 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said:

Do we need to be more solid defensively? How many clean sheets have we kept? Weve got to balance both parts of the pitch and Ramsey/trez will not contribute the same goals and assists as Barkley/traore.

Look at the impact Barkleys positioning has on Watkins, he spends less time wondering about in the channels and more time in the box. No surprise that hes started scoring again.

Last two games at least - the opposition were attacking in waves.

[PaulC]

Barkley links up well with Grealish and Watkins and Ive yet to see Sanson and I would always pick MdGinn if fit so its between Luiz and Nakamba for the dm spot. Things can change though, but at the moment thats what i would do. 

[cheltenham_villa]

36 minutes ago, nepal_villan said:

Last two games at least - the opposition were attacking in waves.

But we kept clean sheets in one of them. Start making major changes to that midfield and you will invite more pressure. For me we now have the best balance of attack and defence.

[ender4]

Luiz

McGinn

Sanson

Ramsey

Nakamba

(Barkley)

Possibly need 1 more more this summer if Ramsey can’t quite make the full step up or if Nakamba isn’t quite good enough.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

I don’t know about you, but I feel this is a problem area for us at the moment and one that seems to have developed more as the season has gone on. I thought Luiz and McGinn started the season pretty well but both have tailed off in my opinion. 

One thing I’ve noticed in the last few matches is how easily teams are playing through us. I watched Barkley closely against West Ham and Arsenal and he literally jogs around, not tracking men and marking space. Could this be the reason it looks so unbalanced at the moment? Is Ross under instruction not to track back. 

I can’t quite put my finger on it but that area of the pitch seems a problem for us and I’m not sure who our best three are to start matches. 

Persoanlly, I’d like us to go with Luiz, McGinn and Sanson/Ramsey next match as I don’t think Barkley is up to it nor do I think he deserves a start. He seems to make us worse as a unit in there. 

Don’t really want to turn this into a Barkley criticism thread but interested to see what everyone thinks. 

We have a thread for Summer speculation but I’d put a big, strong defensive midfielder at the very top of the list. 

UTV.

I agree.

you have to work, no matter how talented you are, and that work is not purposeless running without the ball, its effective running with and without the ball....we have a few ball watchers, spectators in the middle.....Dean needs to keep an eye on them.

[TRO]

11 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Luiz is losing too many 50/50 duels for me to play in the 6 role. Against West Ham he got bullied out of the game. Not because he is a bad player but because Rice and Soucek is just bigger and stronger than him. He is too lightweight.

The players you mentioned. I can't remember Carrick or Xabi Alonso being small players and struggling with the physicality. Did you see Soucek being aggressive, winning the ball off Watkins leading to a goal. That's what a DM should do. Luiz is too passive.

Where Luiz strenght is when he is getting into advanced positions. Remember his goals last season. Watch his assist for Grealish against Burnley. That's what he will do if played further up the pitch.

I think you are right....he will be a good player, but if he is to pursue a DM role he needs a strength building programme like Jack had, he is neat and tidy on the ball, no doubt, but is equally lightweight and easy to relieve of the ball....Dean was right to rest him.

your examples have merit and describe the issue.

[KentVillan]

51 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think you are right....he will be a good player, but if he is to pursue a DM role he needs a strength building programme like Jack had, he is neat and tidy on the ball, no doubt, but is equally lightweight and easy to relieve of the ball....Dean was right to rest him.

your examples have merit and describe the issue.

He’s 22 and he doesn’t get bullied off the ball anyway. This is a complete myth. Show me some examples please.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

He’s 22 and he doesn’t get bullied off the ball anyway. This is a complete myth. Show me some examples please.

I disagree.

Watch the games.....Just to give 2 examples the clumsy foul, for the ward prowse free kick at Villa park was, poor......The Pogba penalty was lightweight in challenge......Watch his play.

but you give examples of where, i am wrong.....tell me what challenges he made, or balls won, that set us up to attack.....what are these memorable moments?

He has work to do Imo.....but that is not writing him off, just making observations.

I thought Nakamba, showed more steel against Arsenal....thats not saying Nakamba is a better player overall, just at the bits, i am talking about.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by TRO

[Zhan_Zhuang]

It's not just recent matches where teams have played through our midfield it's been happening for awhile.

Leeds and the first game against Southampton both of them destroyed us through the middle.

Maybe with both Luiz and McGinn out of form it's going to happen, maybe it's too much work for McGinn and he needs someone like Nakamba (or Sanson) in there fighting with him?

One thing for sure is we have options.

[TRO]

22 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

I don’t disagree with this. Football is constantly evolving and I feel like Liverpool and City have shown that 10’s don’t really work anymore and it’s better to have a sitting midfielder and two that run their balls off and fight for every ball. 

Even De Bruyne tracks back and hounds the opposition.

Barkley just doesn’t suit our side at the moment and whilst he may score a couple and assist a few, I think we’d be better off as a team with another box to box player in there. 

The very best teams.. work hard.

we can't afford any player, that doesn't work hard, we can't afford ball watchers.

Talent is great, we need it.....but work rate, is close behind.

[KentVillan]

30 minutes ago, TRO said:

I disagree.

Watch the games.....Just to give 2 examples the clumsy foul, for the ward prowse free kick at Villa park was, poor......The Pogba penalty was lightweight in challenge......Watch his play.

but you give examples of where, i am wrong.....tell me what challenges he made, or balls won, that set us up to attack.....what are these memorable moments?

He has work to do Imo.....but that is not writing him off, just making observations.

I thought Nakamba, showed more steel against Arsenal....thats not saying Nakamba is a better player overall, just at the bits, i am talking about.

 

 

You’ve given two examples of him being bullied off the ball... where he’s fouled someone!? And the Pogba one was a joke decision anyway. Come on.

[MaVilla]

i was thinking about this in depth last night, and in review, i actually think the way our team needs to develop for the most improvement, is for Luiz & McGinn to be pushed out of the team by purchasing better players in their specific positions. (or at least buy players who can genuinely challenge them directly for their places).

Sanson might be one of those players to offer direct challenge to the 8 and 10 positions, but i also think we need a DM and an MC who can play 8/10, personally i would punt a good 50m+ on these two positions as they for me, are they two key areas we need to make a marked improvement on the current 11.

i think the DM, MC (8/10) and RW are the key/primary areas to address in the summer.

[Teale's 'tache]

I don't think there's really one midfield set up that is going to cover all bases, and I don't think it's as simple as just balancing the midfield 3.

The make-up of the midfield should be on a game by game basis, it needs to be in consideration of the opposition and also how we set up the rest of the team, if we have wingers that are going to be working back plenty then we can afford a more attacking midfield 3, if the wingers are less likely to track back then it's the midfield that needs to cover them and so it's needs to be more defensively minded. Also, how do we want the full backs to play? If we want them to bomb on then the midfield needs to cover them, if not then again we can go more attacking in the middle.

What I'm trying to say is that an imbalance in the midfield isn't always down to just those three midfielders. At the start of the season, Trezeguet helped to balance out Barkley being a bit further forward, Bert as much as I love him isn't as good at covering his full back, in recent times we've suffered a bit from a drop in form/fitness of Luiz/McGinn and Barkley, and also I think we've been wanting to have our cake and eat it in terms of having attacking full backs and having Barkley and Bert in the team when tracking back isn't as natural to them.

The good news is we have plenty of options now, it's up to Smith to pick the right ones and find the balance we crave across the whole team.