danceoftheshamen Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 MON used to frustrate the heck out of me. I agree about the Robertson effect too. Never will forget bringing Heskey in to prevent us getting a likely top 4 spot i mean what the heck was that about? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MentalM Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 I just hope every Villa fan behaves in social media, and support our players. Dont message them and be a douche 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 On the one hand our second season back in the prem - You would consider staying out the relegation mire to be the aim for this season. One the other hand, We have a once in a generation player like Grealish, surely amongst the top 5 players in the PL - theres even a case that he is the best player in the PL Also in Martinez, we appear to have made our best transfer since David Platt , Paul Mcgrath. era, Right now I would say he is the best keeper in the PL. so with those two, once in a generation players - is finishing 3 places above the RZ acceptable ? Personally I will be disappointed with anything below 8TH. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 49 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: MON deserved credit for getting us so far, but criticism for not getting us further. Considering the money we had, relatively speaking, we should have pushed on from our 6th places finish(es) and made that final step to the big leagues and in the end it was his transfer policy that was the biggest roadblock to that, imo. To be brutally honest, i think MON failed in the top 4 scenario, he imo should have got us top 4 with the players and investment he had (specifically the 2008/09 season). In 2008/09 we finished 6th on 62 points (4th was on 72 points), we were effectively in the top 4 right up until game week 29. in the first 25 games we won 15, drew 6 and lost 4. in the last 13 games we won 2, drew 5 and lost 6, we effectively bottled it that year, that year should have been a nailed on top 4. lets not forget that was also the famous year where we played the B team in the UEFA cup to "give us a better chance in the league of finishing top 4".....right before that 13 game run. 2008/09, where our squad consisted of Friedel, Bouma, Cuellar, Barry, Milner, Petrov, Young, Carew etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 hour ago, hippo said: On the one hand our second season back in the prem - You would consider staying out the relegation mire to be the aim for this season. One the other hand, We have a once in a generation player like Grealish, surely amongst the top 5 players in the PL - theres even a case that he is the best player in the PL Also in Martinez, we appear to have made our best transfer since David Platt , Paul Mcgrath. era, Right now I would say he is the best keeper in the PL. so with those two, once in a generation players - is finishing 3 places above the RZ acceptable ? Personally I will be disappointed with anything below 8TH. agree with everything apart from the last sentence the problem is that only looks at us and not at everyone else, take liverpool, chelsea, city, spurs, utd out of it for a start, then you have leicester who have 5 or 6 players who were around £30m, and everton who have ancelotti and again 3 or 4 £30m players and James, so thats the top 7 done, so then chuck us in with southampton, west ham, wolves, arsenal if they turn it around and maybe leeds, from that wolves and southampton are better teams than what we are right now, west ham have an expensive squad but a shit manager, arsenal are an enigma because they could sign a £50m player in jan and pull their finger out of their ass making themselves not so bad anymore, leeds finishing above us id be disappointed with just because **** leeds with that kind of context and assuming that we at least see progression in the football if not the results and position i would be ok with finishing 11th or 12th 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Stevo985 said: MON deserved credit for getting us so far, but criticism for not getting us further. Considering the money we had, relatively speaking, we should have pushed on from our 6th places finish(es) and made that final step to the big leagues and in the end it was his transfer policy that was the biggest roadblock to that, imo. It wasn't just the transfer policy, it was the way we played - we were very effective a lot of the time but as we got taken more seriously, the onus was on us to break teams down rather than counter attacking and that just wasn't our philosophy. MON did wonders for us and made us a respectable outfit, but the team was built to his spec and was limited in some areas - we were always going to be buggered when he went. It's like a smaller version of Fergie or Wenger - when the club is built with one guy pulling all the strings, the future is always going to be a problem. Suffice to say, I think we've got a much better system now with lots of defined roles and less concentrated pockets of power behind the scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 hour ago, hippo said: On the one hand our second season back in the prem - You would consider staying out the relegation mire to be the aim for this season. One the other hand, We have a once in a generation player like Grealish, surely amongst the top 5 players in the PL - theres even a case that he is the best player in the PL Also in Martinez, we appear to have made our best transfer since David Platt , Paul Mcgrath. era, Right now I would say he is the best keeper in the PL. so with those two, once in a generation players - is finishing 3 places above the RZ acceptable ? Personally I will be disappointed with anything below 8TH. With how this season is heading points wise we could get 60 points and finish about 14th I think that would be acceptable 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 4, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, lexicon said: It wasn't just the transfer policy, it was the way we played - we were very effective a lot of the time but as we got taken more seriously, the onus was on us to break teams down rather than counter attacking and that just wasn't our philosophy. MON did wonders for us and made us a respectable outfit, but the team was built to his spec and was limited in some areas - we were always going to be buggered when he went. It's like a smaller version of Fergie or Wenger - when the club is built with one guy pulling all the strings, the future is always going to be a problem. Suffice to say, I think we've got a much better system now with lots of defined roles and less concentrated pockets of power behind the scenes. I agree but I think more savvy transfers would have solved that problem. The transfers MON made initially were perfect for us. Some quality mixed in with the basics done well. Pace, power etc But I think what we needed for that extra push was some more quality up front and some creativity in the centre of midfield. Instead we paid ludicrous amounts of money for Heskey/Harewood, and fullbacks of debateable quality like Warnock and Shorey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 I think MON also couldnt attract big players and that was a stumbling point. We needed a No. 10 but we never even got close to signing one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I agree but I think more savvy transfers would have solved that problem. The transfers MON made initially were perfect for us. Some quality mixed in with the basics done well. Pace, power etc But I think what we needed for that extra push was some more quality up front and some creativity in the centre of midfield. Instead we paid ludicrous amounts of money for Heskey/Harewood, and fullbacks of debateable quality like Warnock and Shorey It definitely would have made the transition easier, but it was never really his style - I think by the time the Heskey transfer came in, we probably didn't have a lot of cash left either and that kind of player was a lot more expensive then. On a side note, really amazing how much the overall quality of the league has improved in the last 10 years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
est1874 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) Personally I think that what's being interpreted here as entitlement is actually more like anxiety coupled with impatience. A lot of it is born out of the fact that we are witnessing a rarity in Jack Grealish: a once-in-a-generation talent who is good enough to play for anyone in the world (genuinely), but is in fact a local lad who bleeds Villa and wants to succeed with us if he can help it. I think there's a realisation, however, that as much as Jack loves us and wants to succeed here, he will leave if that doesn't happen. So the times when we've had opportunities to cement ourselves in the top 3/4 this season and haven't done so (or been robbed by VAR) have bred a lot of frustration and emotional response as a result. I think a lot of people do have the sense that if we don't finish in European positions this year, Jack will inevitably leave. Not because finishing 10th isn't a sign of great progress in the space of one season (it is), but because Jack is good enough to win titles - either in England or elsewhere. There may be other factors too, of course. Maybe some individuals really are entitled. But that's how I read it -- essentially this season is our best opportunity in a decade to really push on and show we mean business as a club, so when we lose it somehow hurts all the more. Edited January 4, 2021 by est1874 Apologies if this has been said - I haven't read every single reply in the thread! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 It's important to be both pragmatic and fair when it comes to situations like this. I think I wasn't alone when before the season started I said that I'd be happy with seeing some progress, which meant that we wouldn't be in a relegation battle again. What has transpired since then and the position we find ourselves in now, means that I think we'll be comfortably top half. All in all, Smith has done a great job so far and even if things don't go as smoothly from now and until the end of the season, as long he hits the required criteria, I'll still be behind him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 10 hours ago, TRO said: I haven't seen or heard of anyone doing that....as far as I can see, he is being lauded this season. It was mentioned by the OP, I'm addressing that thank you very much! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoyman Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Yes, I think we need to overperform to keep Grealish, if it's even possible to, and that drives some anxiety My head says staying clear of a relegation battle and pushing lower mid table is enough, heart says with the way we've been playing (not to mention the money we've spent), and the fact that Sheffield Utd finished 9th last season it'd be a shame to not push higher That said this is a very tough month that will probably give us a realistic picture of where we'll really be I also think we'll probably get randomly dispiritingly battered by a team that shouldn't beat us at least once more this season - it's happened to nearly everyone else and Leeds are the only team to really play us off the park so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WooJung Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Stevo985 said: MON deserved credit for getting us so far, but criticism for not getting us further. Considering the money we had, relatively speaking, we should have pushed on from our 6th places finish(es) and made that final step to the big leagues and in the end it was his transfer policy that was the biggest roadblock to that, imo. As well as this we should also keep in mind that at the time the likes of Man City and Spurs were nowhere near the level they are now, and leicester or its equivalent wasn't really a thing. Point being, the league wasn't as competitive as it is now, even considering Arsenal's recent form Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb_82 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Good post/debate I have to say I've had this line of thinking myself and been quite staggered at the amount of chuck the cup type comments ive read on various things over the last few days as we have our CL/EL finish to preserve - It has to me came across as entitlement as for the first time in probably 10 years we have been anywhere near the top 10 of the prem and suddenly Villa are back. We have had a good start but there is a long way to go, and although you can say there is nothing between us and top3 there is also not a fat lot between us and Leeds (3 points) either and although we do have games in hand the away game at City is getting more difficult by the week as they go through the gears and Newcastle at the home should be 3 points but we have seen other home games go the other way. In my opinion any top 10 finish will be success this year and so i cant see why we wouldn't go all out for the cup alongside it - Don't forget Liverpool/United/City/Chelsea/Spurs/Leicester will likely be the 6 battling for top 4 spaces and then behind that you have Arsenal/Everton/Southampton/West Ham/Leeds/Wolves will also have similar thoughts of finishing in the 6-10th spaces. Sorry if im sounding pessimistic but ive seen this before, we will drop off and finish 10th and there will be outrage from fans who only 12 months before were praying we stayed in the division - A funny facebook post said the cup can wait lol we haven't won jack all for 25 years, i would take it in a heartbeat over finishing 5th/6th in the league 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7392craig Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 21 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Think the best big about quitting Facebook a few years ago was avoiding the people there. Amazing amount of morons. Fixed. Facebook is becoming as bad as twitter. So glad I quit them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) One of the big differences between O'Neill and Smith is that Smith seems willing to learn and adapt (see: tightening up after lockdown last season) whereas O'Neill was incredibly stubborn. Edited January 4, 2021 by Mantis 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MentalM Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 21 minutes ago, cb_82 said: I have to say I've had this line of thinking myself and been quite staggered at the amount of chuck the cup type comments ive read on various things over the last few days as we have our CL/EL finish to preserve I would love to win the cup, but this year I would prefer if we focused mainly on the PL. Not because we have a CL/EL to preserve, but who knows, we could compete. And this season I am more scared of injuries to the tight program, and I would prefer rotations to happen in the cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 3 hours ago, The Fun Factory said: Yes. I remember the transfer window in which we bought Ivanhoe and Arsenal bought Arshavin who was quite good then. Unsurpisingly they finished above us. MON assembled a team of promising youngsters and seasoned old pros but we always lacked that magic dust to unlock a team and nick a game. Like a Grealish. We were far better away from home than at Villa Park. I just remember a lot of draws versus teams we should have beaten. MON did not evolve his style of a meat and potatoes 4-4-2 with proper wingers and a big lad up front. It only really worked well on the counter attack. O'Neill did not really do tactics he left that to Robertson who did not follow him after Villa. That is why he has done nothing of note since he flouched out of Villa Park whereas earlier in his career he was considered the successor to Fergie at United. Shakespeare is huge in our set up I think when you mention the John Robertson reference. We are just far more streetwise in how we set up and manage the game when we're winning now so really don't think it's a co-incidence we've become good at that since he joined the set up given he was part of a title winning team 5 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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