Head Trauma in Sport

[Zatman]

I think this is a topic that will be definitely more common in the coming months. I think its something Football will need to take more seriously as more research is done. A lot of the 1966 World Cup team have suffered dementia and more modern players like Alan Shearer has said he is quite worried about this from the amount of headers and aeriel duels he faced. 

Its also not football, Thompson from the 2003 rugby team has been dignosed at 43 and filing a lawsuit along with 10 other players of a similar age. Ice Hockey, American football have had issues in the past so you have to wonder when it will stop. Is it time to make sports safer

[PussEKatt]

Does boxing have anything to say ?

[bannedfromHandV]

People choose to be sportsmen and women, they know the risks of playing contact sports and in a lot of cases are rewarded handsomely for doing so.

What are they going to do? Take contact out of sport? It would change it all beyond reason for me.

How many people suffer with dementia having not been a professional sportsperson? Who’s to say these individuals wouldn’t have suffered with it irrespective of their career choices?

Easy for me to say of course because I’m not directly affected but it just feels like an enhancement of the ‘blame culture’ that’s so rife these days.

[tom_avfc]

3 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

People choose to be sportsmen and women, they know the risks of playing contact sports and in a lot of cases are rewarded handsomely for doing so.

What are they going to do? Take contact out of sport? It would change it all beyond reason for me.

How many people suffer with dementia having not been a professional sportsperson? Who’s to say these individuals wouldn’t have suffered with it irrespective of their career choices?

Easy for me to say of course because I’m not directly affected but it just feels like an enhancement of the ‘blame culture’ that’s so rife these days.

This is a strange take. I'm pretty sure there's been very comprehensive studies done which confirm a link between head trauma in sports and dementia.  

Surely, the appropriate response is to look at what is causing this problem and try to minimise it where possible. Its not even necessarily removing contact from sport. A lot of studies have shown a link between heading a football and subsequent dementia. If this is the case then encouraging people to continually head footballs in training is not a very sensible thing to do. 

If there's a link between performing an activity and subsequent health issues I'd rather we were looking into how we could minimise the risk rather than just brushing it under the carpet because it doesn't directly affect people. 

Additionally, when people choose to play sports they are probably pretty unaware of the fact that it could cause such health issues in the future. Any campaign that seeks to highlight these issues should be applauded and not be put down as "blame culture".

[sharkyvilla]

Yes the links between head injuries and dementia have really been a relatively recent study so it's a bit unfair to say these sportsmen knew all the risks of competitive, contact sport and concussion.  How liable individual sports are for it I'm not so sure.  People shouldnt be getting dementia in their 40s though.

[mjmooney]

The "heed tha ba'" problem may stem mainly from that 1960s generation, when footballs were very different from those of today. I'm old enough to remember playing with wet, heavy leather caseballs, lacing and all, which made the modern equivalents look like balloons. I'd be surprised if the brain damage statistics remain high for today's players. 

[chrisp65]

6 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

People choose to be sportsmen and women, they know the risks of playing contact sports and in a lot of cases are rewarded handsomely for doing so.

What are they going to do? Take contact out of sport? It would change it all beyond reason for me.

How many people suffer with dementia having not been a professional sportsperson? Who’s to say these individuals wouldn’t have suffered with it irrespective of their career choices?

Easy for me to say of course because I’m not directly affected but it just feels like an enhancement of the ‘blame culture’ that’s sorife these days.

Not sure you can fully explain to a kid that they shouldn’t pursue a life in sport unless they are prepared to risk early dementia at the age of 51.

 

 

Also, the same logic would suggest boxers shouldn’t have to wear gloves and people shouldn’t need to wear crash helmets or seat belts, they know the risks, it’s their call.

 

[bickster]

7 hours ago, Zatman said:

and more modern players like Alan Shearer has said he is quite worried about this from the amount of headers and aeriel duels he faced. 

I'm sure his opponents are more worried as he had a penchant for elbowing them in the head

[phily85]

15 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

The "heed tha ba'" problem may stem mainly from that 1960s generation, when footballs were very different from those of today. I'm old enough to remember playing with wet, heavy leather caseballs, lacing and all, which made the modern equivalents look like balloons. I'd be surprised if the brain damage statistics remain high for today's players. 

Could there be an argument to say the players today are more physically developed.

So although the ball is lighter the force the ball is kicked at is a lot more.

The size of some of the modern days players legs I wouldn't want to be sticking my head in the way of a ball they kicked

[villan-scott]

3 hours ago, mjmooney said:

The "heed tha ba'" problem may stem mainly from that 1960s generation, when footballs were very different from those of today. I'm old enough to remember playing with wet, heavy leather caseballs, lacing and all, which made the modern equivalents look like balloons. I'd be surprised if the brain damage statistics remain high for today's players. 

Very true. The heavier balls of course do more damage. However, there was a BBC documentary with Shearer last year, I think. The study in that discovered the repetitive impact on the head, even with the lighter ball/object would cause issue with dementia. 

I guess the key to it is not having your centre backs head 50 balls away in training for practice as a starting point. I can’t see them removing it from the game completely as some have suggested. 

[kidlewis]

I think we need to analyse the danger. Mitigate where possible and build processes and legal frameworks to ensure it’s a safe as can be.

 

formula one have this down to a tee and it still doesn’t work. Jules Bianchi an example of a tragedy when process or gaps in the safety processes don’t follow. 
 

Each sport can focus on it but it may be at the expense of other factors.

 

an example of this is in transport (I.e UK rail) the safest rail network in Europe but that comes at the expense of other factors where processes dictate certain protocols which can at times unfairly impact customers. 
 

if you want sport to be 100% safe then that will 100% impact the quality of the game. (I.e ban tackling or stop scrums). 
 

Quite rightly, that will never happen, it’s about balance. 
 

for rugby you could limit the games a player can play in a time window, that would mean increased squads and costs, so clubs would need more money. 
 

lots to consider but worth taking the time to review. 

[KentVillan]

The problem with rugby is that it switched very quickly from being an amateur game played by fairly ordinary looking people (besides the cauliflower ears) to a game played entirely by freaks, training throughout the week to hit people with the force of a car crash.

So whereas most sports - football, boxing, formula 1, cricket - have become a lot safer, rugby is one of the few sports to have become significantly more dangerous in recent times.

That perhaps puts a different complexion on things. We can guess how much damage footballers have done to themselves from previous generations... same for boxing.

But rugby is a big unknown - the modern game has only been around for about 25 years, and it's starting to look like some players have suffered serious consequences in later life. Who knows how bad it will be?

[Zatman]

some people might remember him from WWE about 20 years ago

 

[bickster]

On 10/12/2020 at 01:47, KentVillan said:

rugby is one of the few sports to have become significantly more dangerous in recent times.

I honestly do not think this is true, you only have to look at the rule changes brought into the game to know it isn't true. Just one example is the outlawing of the spear tackle. The rules of scrummage  (set and Loose) have completely changed too.

Head to head contact isn't really the big problem in rubgy anyway, most major injuries are neck or spinal as far as I'm aware

 

[Stevo985]

On 09/12/2020 at 12:12, bannedfromHandV said:

People choose to be sportsmen and women, they know the risks of playing contact sports and in a lot of cases are rewarded handsomely for doing so.

This just isn't true

[villa89]

On 10/12/2020 at 01:47, KentVillan said:

Who knows how bad it will be?

I know, it's going to be very bad. I've seen players have to retire because of multiple concussions in rugby. Heard a few stories of young ex pros with narcolepsy, vertigo, etc. A game of rugby is basically like being in a car crash. Imagine going through that every week. The question is who, if anyone, will be held accountable. 

[KentVillan]

5 hours ago, bickster said:

I honestly do not think this is true, you only have to look at the rule changes brought into the game to know it isn't true. Just one example is the outlawing of the spear tackle. The rules of scrummage  (set and Loose) have completely changed too.

Head to head contact isn't really the big problem in rubgy anyway, most major injuries are neck or spinal as far as I'm aware

 

What has changed is that the players are much bigger and faster, and they have more games + more training. So even if the rules theoretically make it a safer game, it's counterbalanced by the sheer force of impact in every tackle - you only need to be slightly unlucky in a tackle to have a car crash impact on your head, which might be happening several times a season.

These CTE type problems are the result of lots of impacts anyway, which is exactly the point people like Steve Thompson are making. Yes rugby might have mostly dealt with the neck / spinal injuries that were paralysing players in freak accidents, but if players are coming out of a long career in rugby with low-level head trauma leading to early-onset dementia, that's as bad as a severe spinal injury. The volume of games played and full-contact training sessions in modern pro rugby would suggest it will be *more* of a problem with the current crop of players.

Contrast with football, where most people seem to think CTE is a bigger problem for earlier generations of players who were playing with heavy balls (Kenneth Williams gif) and a much more physical version of the rules (Kenneth Williams gif). Modern professional football is clearly a much safer game than what was played in the 20th century. I think rugby is a bit different, but I do agree with your point that rugby has tried to make the game safer with rule changes.

[snowychap]

The conversation seems to be concentrating on professional sportspeople and ignoring kids.

I've been reading that some schools are looking at banning/have banned contact/collision rugby. And I'm sure a friend told me that his lad(s) only played touch rugby up until the age of about 12 (and that was a few years ago).

Tbh, I'm not surprised. As @KentVillan says above, the game has changed - and it's not just at the elite level. With that change in the game filtering down to lower levels and then the natural disparity in sizes you are going to get at various age levels growing up (if anyone age 13/14 happens to turn out against Monmouth under 14s, for example ), it's bound to be an issue.

Accidents will always happen (someone in my year at school died at 12 as a result of a brain haemorrhage from a collision on the rugby field) but if the nature of the game is about big physical hits, collisions, ball-recycling and defence rather than passing and running then the issues become endemic rather than just tragic anomolies.

[Rds1983]

32 minutes ago, snowychap said:

The conversation seems to be concentrating on professional sportspeople and ignoring kids.

I've been reading that some schools are looking at banning/have banned contact/collision rugby. And I'm sure a friend told me that his lad(s) only played touch rugby up until the age of about 12 (and that was a few years ago).

Tbh, I'm not surprised. As @KentVillan says above, the game has changed - and it's not just at the elite level. With that change in the game filtering down to lower levels and then the natural disparity in sizes you are going to get at various age levels growing up (if anyone age 13/14 happens to turn out against Monmouth under 14s, for example ), it's bound to be an issue.

Accidents will always happen (someone in my year at school died at 12 as a result of a brain haemorrhage from a collision on the rugby field) but if the nature of the game is about big physical hits, collisions, ball-recycling and defence rather than passing and running then the issues become endemic rather than just tragic anomolies.

Amateur level is just as you say. I played rugby for years at the amateur level and sustained multiple concussions (as did several friends). The worst was just after I made a tackle and an opposition forward (probably 18/19 stone) gave me a running knee to the temple. I quit in part due to becoming a dad and having less time but also due to vertigo/dizziness (and major sleep issues) , after various tests and MRIs the Dr's still aren't 100% on what's causing it. They did find a 9mm pineal cyst though and I suspect that's linked to the symptoms (Dr's say it's not). Rules need to be advanced to protect people, just like dangerous 2 footed challenges are illegal. 

[bannedfromHandV]

Thing is though, I fell off my bike and knocked myself out twice as a kid, I also got knocked out by a tennis racket in school.

 

Accidents happen, what are we going to do, just never leave the house (maybe that’s the way we are going) or walk around wrapped in bubble-wrap??

 

If I get dementia when I’m older can I sue the bike manufacturers or my school, or Konrad Martin who knocked me out in a ‘fight’ when we were 13 (it wasn’t a fight, he sucker punched me but fair play, it was a beaut).

 

How are kids going to learn how to head a ball if it’s banned at their age group, how are they going to learn to tackle in rugby, it’s actually counter intuitive in many respects as they’re more likely to get hurt when they do start playing big-boy sports having never trained properly beforehand.