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51 minutes ago, blandy said:

How certain are you of that, that the monitoring window is 4 years, not 3?

I am 99% certain. Although its not spelled out in publicly available Premier League rulebook yet, it is spelled out in EFL rulebook and both organisations use the same rules (apart from different £13m, £35m loss limit values obviously):

3.4  In respect of Season 2020/21, the Lower Loss Threshold and Upper Loss Threshold for each Club shall be calculated based on the aggregation of the Club’s Annual Lower Loss Threshold and Annual Upper Loss Threshold for T, T-1, T-2 and T-3 as per the figures set out table in Rule 3.1 as amended by dividing those figures by 4 and then multiplied them by 3. 

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/

 

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25 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

I am 99% certain. Although its not spelled out in publicly available Premier League rulebook yet, it is spelled out in EFL rulebook and both organisations use the same rules (apart from different £13m, £35m loss limit values obviously):

3.4  In respect of Season 2020/21, the Lower Loss Threshold and Upper Loss Threshold for each Club shall be calculated based on the aggregation of the Club’s Annual Lower Loss Threshold and Annual Upper Loss Threshold for T, T-1, T-2 and T-3 as per the figures set out table in Rule 3.1 as amended by dividing those figures by 4 and then multiplied them by 3. 

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/

The PL rules say something different to the EFL - I think the PL rules said at the start of the season just ended, something like "we're just not applying the rules for 2019/20, (the first Covid season)". Yeah, they did "In respect of Season 2019/20, the provisions of Rules E.50 to E.53 shall not apply".

For the season soon to start (next month), the rules say (as I posted a page or so back).

Quote

If the aggregation of a Club’s Earnings Before Tax for T-1, T-2 and T-3.....If the PSR Calculation results in losses of in excess of £105m: E.51.1. the Board may exercise its powers set out in Rule E.15; and E.51.2. the Club shall be treated as being in breach of these Rules and accordingly the Board shall refer the breach to a Commission constituted pursuant to Section W of these Rules. E.52. The sum set out in Rule E.51 shall be reduced by £22m for each Season covered by T-1, T-2 and T-3 in which the Club was in membership of The Football League....

So I've seen nothing anywhere that says the EFL version applies to the PL. I have seen people saying the PL was making allowance for Covid's impact by allowing the losses to be averaged over 2 years, though that's not documented in their rule book.

The PL rules only cover 3 years, from all I've read, but happy to be better informed. 

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@blandy

Yes, you are correct that the latest publicly available 21/22 Premier League Handbook doesn't document any COVID allowances. The 20/21 Handbook had the rule below added to it:

E.53.

In respect of Season 2019/20, the provisions of Rules E.48 to E.51 shall not apply.

That basically meant that last summer nobody was scrutinised on FFP.

   
   
   

If you take the published 21/22 Handbook rules at their face value. they ignore COVID completely and are 100% the same as before 20/21 season, so you would need to calculate last 3 seasons individually:

T-1 20/21

T-2 19/20

T-3 18/19

Without any allowable COVID caused write-offs, as the handbook doesn't mention you are allowed to write anything off.  Most teams would fail the FFP scrutiny if that was the case as losses for 20/21 will be massive if you don't exclude COVID induced losses.

I suspect that privately shareholders (clubs and Premier League board) have updated rulebook that will be published in due course. This rulebook will contain similar changes that EFL already published (COVID costs excluded and last 2 seasons combined into 1).

 
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29 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

I suspect that privately shareholders (clubs and Premier League board) have updated rulebook that will be published in due course. This rulebook will contain similar changes that EFL already published (COVID costs excluded and last 2 seasons combined into 1).

I still don't think it'll be the same as the EFL. the 4 seasons thing you posted - not from what I've read, anyway which was to allow the averaging over 2 seasons, but definitely not adding in an extra season and dividing by 4 and multiplying by 3. I also read that clubs' covid costs and revenue hits will be written off, in terms of FFP calcs.

I think while the EFL and PL kind of try and align, broadly, they have different sets of detailed rules and stuff around FFP and what's in and what's out - the EFL are more descriptive and detailed, the PL more kind of relaxed about it.

 

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1 minute ago, blandy said:

I still don't think it'll be the same as the EFL. the 4 seasons thing you posted - not from what I've read, anyway which was to allow the averaging over 2 seasons, but definitely not adding in an extra season and dividing by 4 and multiplying by 3. I also read that clubs' covid costs and revenue hits will be written off, in terms of FFP calcs.

I think while the EFL and PL kind of try and align, broadly, they have different sets of detailed rules and stuff around FFP and what's in and what's out - the EFL are more descriptive and detailed, the PL more kind of relaxed about it.

 

👍

We will find out in due course. 

Hope Premier League was more transparent, EFL upped their game recently and are much better at publishing this kind of information...not that Derby County are very happy with this 😊

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1 minute ago, Czarnikjak said:

👍

We will find out in due course. 

Hope Premier League was more transparent, EFL upped their game recently and are much better at publishing this kind of information...not that Derby County are very happy with this 😊

We will. I think, fwiw, the two leagues are very different. the financial gap is so huge that by and large the Prem really ought to have no or very very few issues with clubs going bust because of reckless ownership, whereas the EFL clubs has massive issues, particularly for relegated clubs, or those gambling on spending and going up to the Prem. They need (for the sake of club survival) to be more strict.

If the purpose of FFP is to make clubs stable and viable, rather than to rig the game for certain clubs, then the PL being less transparent and more flexible is perhaps a good thing?

And back to the original question, Christian Purslow was one of the PL FFP boffins, and will I imagine know exactly what leeway the club has for spending under the PL rules, both as written and as privately amended to allow for covid hits). We're heading in the right direction.

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43 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

It is 4 seasons as I assumed in my calculations.

Good work! Thanks for putting me right and improving my understanding👍.

I guess to be pedantic the third column in your spreadsheet should be headed "T-1 & T Avg" ?

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7 hours ago, blandy said:

I guess to be pedantic the third column in your spreadsheet should be headed "T-1 & T Avg" ?

Indeed, if we are being pedantic 😊

BTW, interesting article below, looks like our friends at Everton find themselves in hot water with FFP:

http://sportwitness.co.uk/ffp-restrictions-stopping-everton-finalising-deal-belief-transfer-will-happen-soon/

Quote

PSV Eindhoven are working with Denzel Dumfries to get the player a move this summer, but suitors Everton cannot move due to Financial Fair Play restrictions.…
We know that Everton are interested in him, but they have to wait because of the rules in England and the Financial Fair Play. It’s impossible for them to get a player now.

That would explain why they only spent £1.5m this summer so far.

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Just now, Czarnikjak said:

Indeed, if we are being pedantic 😊

BTW, interesting article below, looks like our friends at Everton find themselves in hot water with FFP:

http://sportwitness.co.uk/ffp-restrictions-stopping-everton-finalising-deal-belief-transfer-will-happen-soon/

That would explain why they only spent £1.5m this summer so far.

With the players they’ve signed, and ones they’re likely losing, Everton are in real trouble.

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4 hours ago, a m ole said:

With the players they’ve signed, and ones they’re likely losing, Everton are in real trouble.

They have some insanely high salaries in only ok players. Basically where we were when we got relegated. Players on big contracts playing for the money not the shirt.

Gylfi may well have saved them a big chunk of money with his scandalous actions though, assuming they can tear up the contract if he goes down.

They'll be paying Benitez a hefty amount too.

Bad place for then to be. Short term recruitment, its a b!!ch.

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On 29/07/2021 at 09:38, Czarnikjak said:

@blandy

Found it, it is in the Premier League Handbook after all, just in different section of it:

940925315_Screenshot2021-07-29at09_35_37.thumb.png.721e150f781eea307d6e0a8e886b89a0.png

It is 4 seasons as I assumed in my calculations.

Must have something wrong but if you divide by 4 then * 3…. that’s (35 + 35 + 13 + 13)/4*3 = 96 * 0.75 = £72m ?

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2 hours ago, KentVillan said:

How does our FFP status look if Grealish stays and we still try and sign Buendia, Bailey, JWP + 1 for around 120-140m total?

Well this guy is saying you can't do that 

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What we are forgetting is the increase in income. We can assume that our club have increased the income massively, therefore we can afford a couple more signings without selling Jack or anybody else?

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5 hours ago, KentVillan said:

How does our FFP status look if Grealish stays and we still try and sign Buendia, Bailey, JWP + 1 for around 120-140m total?

I wouldn’t worry about it I think Man City have shown the rules are irrelevant 

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7 hours ago, KentVillan said:

How does our FFP status look if Grealish stays and we still try and sign Buendia, Bailey, JWP + 1 for around 120-140m total?

@Czarnikjak calculates that with Bailey and buendia signed, we have roughly 10-20m left to spend if we have zero outgoings.

Any outgoings can be added to that.

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7 hours ago, Villaphil said:

Must have something wrong but if you divide by 4 then * 3…. that’s (35 + 35 + 13 + 13)/4*3 = 96 * 0.75 = £72m ?

If you look at that Premier League PSR rule closely it's average of last two years, so:

(70/2) + 13 + 13 = 61

4 by 3 formula is what EFL decided to use in the championship 

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