The AVFC FFP thread

[tomsky_11]

Just now, Czarnikjak said:

Yes, profit on player sales is calculated by taking the average of last 3 seasons. I assume it's to make it less variable and more predictable for teams.

Yeah makes sense. Will have a reread of rules later if find the time. Is that the only multiyear average that contributes to the figure?

[Czarnikjak]

Just now, tomsky_11 said:

Yeah makes sense. Will have a reread of rules later if find the time. Is that the only multiyear average that contributes to the figure?

Yup, and only applies to the squad cost control, not to the allowed loss figure AFAIK.

Also this table is interesting, listing potential financial penalties for going above squad cost (aka Luxury Tax)

[tomsky_11]

8 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

10% increase in 2022/23. I think 25% in 2023/24. Based on nothing other than pure guess work, factoring in that appointment plus possible European boost.

Just checked and this equates to about £8M increase in sponsorship and commercial (excl player loans) from 22/23 to 23/24. But, I rolled forward our 21/22 player loans income into 22/23, as we seemed to have a reasonable number this season, but have added nothing yet for 23/24 because I assume we'll see a drop if fringe players sold and rest of squad kept for additional games. Therefore the net change in sponsorship and commercial revenue including players loans is basically nothing.

Edited May 31 by tomsky_11

[tomsky_11]

2 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Yup, and only applies to the squad cost control, not to the allowed loss figure AFAIK.

Sorry, I mean is anything else in the squad cost ratio calc a multiyear average?

[Czarnikjak]

Just now, tomsky_11 said:

Sorry, I mean is anything else in the squad cost ratio calc a multiyear average?

No. Just the profit on player sales.

[CVByrne]

Are we sure the squad cost is done over 3 years of accounts? Is it retrospective also? 

[Czarnikjak]

Just now, CVByrne said:

Are we sure the squad cost is done over 3 years of accounts? Is it retrospective also? 

Squad cost is not done over 3 years and it's not retrospective.

The only part of it they look over 3 years is profit on player sales. It's too variable to look only at one transfer window for that.

[CVByrne]

3 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Squad cost is not done over 3 years and it's not retrospective.

The only part of it they look over 3 years is profit on player sales. It's too variable to look only at one transfer window for that.

Yeah was thinking squad cost is over a single season and not retrospective. 

So they average the booked profit over 3 seasons on player registrations and that goes into the calculation. Makes sense

[tomsky_11]

2 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Squad cost is not done over 3 years and it's not retrospective.

The only part of it they look over 3 years is profit on player sales. It's too variable to look only at one transfer window for that.

So we pass at around 80-85% for 23/24 the higher figure being if we have no transfer income at all next season. Still 24/25 a tipping point, lose £33m contribution from Grealish while the threshold drops to 80%, if revenue and costs don't change from my 23/24 forecast thats a £40M gap to plug, so £120M in sales profit.

[Czarnikjak]

13 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

So we pass at around 80-85% for 23/24 the higher figure being if we have no transfer income at all next season. Still 24/25 a tipping point, lose £33m contribution from Grealish while the threshold drops to 80%, if revenue and costs don't change from my 23/24 forecast thats a £40M gap to plug, so £120M in sales profit.

Aston Villa FC Limited posted wages of £9.3m plus £1m directors renumeration. I think it's probably safe to assume the rest of the wages went to footballing staff.

[CVByrne]

The accounts we submit to UEFA for this. Is it based on 22/23 accounts? With no forward looking to 23/24 revenue from European Competition? 

[CVByrne]

Also in terms of wages we need to factor in performance related bonuses. Players get a share of the prize money from higher placings in the PL. 

Also if we submit based on 22/23 accounts. We cannot include any increased revenue due in 23/24 the season we take part in Europe. It depends which is better, as we will add more players and probably increase wage bill this summer but will also have increased revenue next season 

[tomsky_11]

12 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Also in terms of wages we need to factor in performance related bonuses. Players get a share of the prize money from higher placings in the PL. 

Also if we submit based on 22/23 accounts. We cannot include any increased revenue due in 23/24 the season we take part in Europe. It depends which is better, as we will add more players and probably increase wage bill this summer but will also have increased revenue next season 

If it's based on 22/23 then we would probably still be in the 80-85% bracket based on my assumptions,

[CVByrne]

8 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

If it's based on 22/23 then we would probably still be in the 80-85% bracket based on my assumptions,

Depends on if we book a player sale before end of accounting year. Or is that even possible? Window opens in July?

[tomsky_11]

46 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Aston Villa FC Limited posted wages of £9.3m plus £1m directors renumeration. I think it's probably safe to assume the rest of the wages went to footballing staff.

Ooof so a lot less than the 25% I'd factored in. What's the scope of costs that need to be included? From what I skimread it looked like just first team players and head coach, so footballing staff, youth and women not included.

[tomsky_11]

Our accounting year ends today.

Seems fairly safe to assume the sales this summer will fall into 23/24 at this point.

[tomsky_11]

58 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Aston Villa FC Limited posted wages of £9.3m plus £1m directors renumeration. I think it's probably safe to assume the rest of the wages went to footballing staff.

Found it! Aston Villa FC Limited (Company number 02502822) is actually where the players, football management and coaches sit. Total employee costs £124M for 2021/22

Aston Villa Football Club Limited (Company number 03375789) is the one you are refering to, which has the £9.3M figure.

[tomsky_11]

4 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Found it! Aston Villa FC Limited (Company number 02502822) is actually where the players, football management and coaches sit. Total employee costs £124M for 2021/22

Aston Villa Football Club Limited (Company number 03375789) is the one you are refering to, which has the £9.3M figure.

So this is more like 90% of total in group accounts. Though this accounts for 231 staff and our first team and head coach will be, what? 30? If the scope more limited then the cost might be closer to the 75% I'd picked up from elsewhere.

[Czarnikjak]

18 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

So this is more like 90% of total in group accounts. Though this accounts for 231 staff and our first team and head coach will be, what? 30? If the scope more limited then the cost might be closer to the 75% I'd picked up from elsewhere.

This 231 will probably be all footballers and coaches, including academy (not women though). But it's impossible to be sure really. First team players and coaches will take vast majority of it you would think, over 90%, probably more like 95%. So in the best case scenario it would be 90% of £124m 

Edited May 31 by Czarnikjak

[tomsky_11]

1 hour ago, Czarnikjak said:

This 231 will probably be all footballers and coaches, including academy (not women though). But it's impossible to be sure really. First team players and coaches will take vast majority of it you would think, over 90%, probably more like 95%. So in the best case scenario it would be 90% of £124m 

From here:

Quote

K.1 Squad cost ratio numerator

 

K.1.1

Definitions for the calculation of the squad cost ratio numerator are as follows:

K.1.2

Employee benefit expenses of relevant persons

1. Employee benefit expenses of relevant persons are the aggregate of the employee benefit expenses incurred by the licensee or any entity of the reporting perimeter, as defined in Article 65, in respect of each relevant person.

2. Relevant persons include:

   1. each professional male player registered with the licensee at any time during the relevant period;

   2. any other professional male player whose registration the licensee has agreed to temporarily transfer to another football club for the relevant period;

   3. any other professional male player in respect of whom the licensee has incurred employee benefit expenses in the relevant period;

   4. any person who acted as head coach, as defined in Article 47, in the relevant period; and

   5. any other person who previously acted as head coach and for whose role as head coach the licensee has incurred employee benefit expenses in the relevant period.

So all registered male professional players at the club plus the head coach. So I guess can deduct all coaching and other footballing staff besides Emery. I don't know then if there is any question on the definition of registration, and who that might include or exclude. But if that's all players on pro contracts, I'd guess that's less than 100. So 130 other staff, on what kind of average salary? I'd guess some of the first team coaching staff could be on decent money, not sure what exactly though (google brings up a Daily Mail article suggesting average Championship salaries in ranges £50k-£300K for various first team postions beyond the manager. But then majority of the other footballing staff will be on less than this.