Ollie Watkins

[cheltenham_villa]

15 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I agree.

I just find it frustrating people aren’t able to raise what I think are legitimate concerns with Watkins. I also find it very concerning that a lot of people seem to say things like “if he doesn’t cut it up front he can play wide” which I’m paraphrasing rather than quoting anyone specific but it’s a comment widely made.

We need a goal scorer and we need wide players, not one making do as the other.

I agree there are no sure things with strikers, I just feel like there may be better options but we will soon see.

You'll get no judgments from me trent, I'm here for the debate, be so boring if we all thought the same.

Some of the challenge comes because we havent made moves yet. If we had signed rashica on benrahma then I agree, this is a move for an out and out striker. Without those players though, I dont know whether to interpret this as a move for a striker or a move for someone who could play across a front 3 and complement someone like wes.

[brummybloke]

2 minutes ago, Steero113 said:

I'd keep hold of David over Samatta as one of the four any day of the week. He's an absolute beast in training and its only a matter of time before that translates into a game scenario. I feel if we let go of him he will become excellent for another rival. At worst, ensure we loan him to someone near the top of the championship and I reckon he'd return with 10-15 goals. 

davis is not on much so from a financial point of view for our 4th choice (hypothetically)  striker it would make more sense. But from a finishing point of view, if samatta got himself fit like he was pre lockdown and got his confidence back to those levels, I think we will see a better player. Sammatta has scored at this level and looked dangerous pre lockdown, he came back looking unfit and timid, scared to shoot. Whether that was the pressure of missing when in a relegation fight was too much for him, who knows but either we try and off load him for 8 million abroad or we have him here for the foreseeable.

[rayk]

2 minutes ago, brummybloke said:

davis is not on much so from a financial point of view for our 4th choice (hypothetically)  striker it would make more sense. But from a finishing point of view, if samatta got himself fit like he was pre lockdown and got his confidence back to those levels, I think we will see a better player. Sammatta has scored at this level and looked dangerous pre lockdown, he came back looking unfit and timid, scared to shoot. Whether that was the pressure of missing when in a relegation fight was too much for him, who knows but either we try and off load him for 8 million abroad or we have him here for the foreseeable.

I love Davis but he’s either the unluckiest ST in the world or just not suited to playing at a ST.

i actually posted on the Davis thread a few mins back that maybe Davis over the last 5 years should have been converted to a CB in a Dion Dublin-esque style.

he’d have a better career if he’d have made that conversion.

[DaveAV1]

20 minutes ago, brummybloke said:

I would prefer us to sign both watkins and Edouard, then wes/ samatta is our 4 forward players this season. I would be happy with that 4 totally different forwards.

Davis should either be offered a contract extension and loaned out or if we can sell him for a couple million i would do that.

I agree signing them both would be great but I doubt it would happen unless we off load at least one if not two of the other strikers. Bearing in mind we play with one up front unless that is going to change 5 strikers is too many. 
 

Davis is the obvious one to go. Of the other two, if we were to decide to off load another then it would be Samatta. However I doubt we’d get a lot for him unless the PL status adds enough value to overlook his recent form. 

[El-Reacho]

30 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I agree.

I just find it frustrating people aren’t able to raise what I think are legitimate concerns with Watkins. I also find it very concerning that a lot of people seem to say things like “if he doesn’t cut it up front he can play wide” which I’m paraphrasing rather than quoting anyone specific but it’s a comment widely made.

We need a goal scorer and we need wide players, not one making do as the other.

I agree there are no sure things with strikers, I just feel like there may be better options but we will soon see.

Would this not be quite a good attribute to have during the course of a game as opposed to his long term role. Being able to cover those two roles allows smith to change things during a match without making a substitution.

[brummybloke]

23 minutes ago, useless said:

I've posted this before but it's a compilation of all his Brentford goals, it clearly shows that he's more than capable of scoring all sorts and creating his own goals and creating chances for others...

 

Brentford have 2 or 3 in the box for every cross, they know if it is put in around the 6 yard box watkins will be there. He doesn't give up and throws limbs at the ball in the right areas ( infront of goal). Hard working, not willing to give up and brave.

We would have to improve our attack support for his style of forward play.

[rayk]

I think there is a decent player in Samatta. I do think he was unfit when Restart happened which is a bit unprofessional but I have no idea which country he was in and all of that but he is a box player, which is something Wes and Davis aren’t. 

He’s scored in both friendlies so far (?), and with the pre-season behind him he could do a Luiz and come back a different player.

[rayk]

Just to add to the above on Samatta, I think he’d score a hatful in the Championship has we been relegated.

And thinking about it, maybe that was part of the thinking when buying him.

[Jas10]

55 minutes ago, Steero113 said:

I'd keep hold of Davis over Samatta as one of the four any day of the week. He's an absolute beast in training and its only a matter of time before that translates into a game scenario. I feel if we let go of him he will become excellent for another rival. At worst, ensure we loan him to someone near the top of the championship and I reckon he'd return with 10-15 goals. 

I really don’t see it... but he does need to go out on loan.

I just think we can’t afford to be sentimental (Seen a lot of this with calls to bring back players like Benteke & Albrighton, previously Barry - they are simply not good enough or past it) and we really need to assess the squad properly and accurately judge who is and isn’t good enough for us at this level.

Imo, we can’t be giving a player like Davis (who does not score goals) significant game time in the PL if we actually want to compete and climb the table. He really isn’t good enough and either needs development time at a lower level or needs to be moved on.

Sentimentality  has held us back at times and is why we stuck with low quality players (or less technically gifted) such as Gabby. We have to move past that and get genuine talent in if we want to be a force.

We need a strong squad with quality players that will make a difference, all of our forwards should be able to be relied on for goals and assists and that just isn’t the case atm.

We need to strengthen heavily and be a bit more ruthless than we have been in the past.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Jas10

[Jas10]

Back to Watkins, this is definitely worth a listen:

🎙@VillaAnalytics is back to chat about what Advanced Analytics are & how Ollie Watkins looks through that lens🎙

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/for-the-love-of-paul-mcgrath-an-aston-villa-podcast/id1476441985?i=1000487813175

https://www.bullhorn.fm/fortheloveofpaulmcgrathpodcast/posts/villaanalytics-is-back

https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-h8en7-e69ae8

https://open.spotify.com/show/0eeVBPhkPsJ8WvkNCUWRYX?si=EDzfyTM9QrOhpF3SXjQrrQ

 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Jas10

[DaveAV1]

2 hours ago, Steero113 said:

Literally 50+

They did?  Ok. But none for the mighty Villa!

[DaveAV1]

2 hours ago, brummybloke said:

Ian rush, Alan Smith and John Aldridge would have been better examples i think.

You’re right. Damn you and @Steero113 with your superior knowledge. I’ve even met Ian Rush!!

[Brentfordnylons]

5 hours ago, M_Afro said:

Do you think he will be successful at Villa and if so why? I saw quite a bit of Maupay before he moved and he looked good enough to me. He was technically good, strong and very clever. I don’t have the same feeling with Watkins. He is obviously better than Hogan but is he really that much better?

Watkins has the appearance of a pretty boy but he’s as tough as old boots doesn’t get wound up is rarely booked or injured.Over the years  seen  the likes of Gray,Hogan ( very good for us but over only 30 games )Vibe and Maupay  and Oli is by far the better all round player.My only concern would be that the few times he played as striker under Dean he was ineffective but I’m sure he has studied how Thomas has got the best out of him.This isn’t a dig at Dean as Maupay was our first choice striker and we set up a lot different these days.Theres no certainties when you are paying 50 mill for a striker in the PL but at around 20 mill plus add ons it’s a fair gamble.

[SuffolkVillan]

6 hours ago, brummybloke said:

Brentford have 2 or 3 in the box for every cross, they know if it is put in around the 6 yard box watkins will be there. He doesn't give up and throws limbs at the ball in the right areas ( infront of goal). Hard working, not willing to give up and brave.

We would have to improve our attack support for his style of forward play.

Looking at the video he seems to position on the left to cut in or bursts through the centre from deeper. If we go for him, and I think we should; we will still be crying out for a left footed right winger and I would suggest Buendia as he is both creative and will defend.

Trying to second guess Dean's thoughts we could line up :

                                           Heaton/New 

Cash/Guilbert           Konza          Mings            Targett/Henry

                                           Luiz

                          Mcginn                Swift/Hourihane

Buendia/Trez                  Watkins                               Jack

Those new additions add up to approx £100m 

The concern is there will still not be much pace but we might end up increasing possession which will help defensively.

[brummybloke]

1 hour ago, SuffolkVillan said:

Looking at the video he seems to position on the left to cut in or bursts through the centre from deeper. If we go for him, and I think we should; we will still be crying out for a left footed right winger and I would suggest Buendia as he is both creative and will defend.

Trying to second guess Dean's thoughts we could line up :

                                           Heaton/New 

Cash/Guilbert           Konza          Mings            Targett/Henry

                                           Luiz

                          Mcginn                Swift/Hourihane

Buendia/Trez                  Watkins                               Jack

Those new additions add up to approx £100m 

The concern is there will still not be much pace but we might end up increasing possession which will help defensively.

The concern is as you say, lack of pace. 

I cant see us not going for at least 2 pacey players in the forward spots.

 

 

[Keener window-cleaner]

2 hours ago, Brentfordnylons said:

Watkins has the appearance of a pretty boy but he’s as tough as old boots doesn’t get wound up is rarely booked or injured.Over the years  seen  the likes of Gray,Hogan ( very good for us but over only 30 games )Vibe and Maupay  and Oli is by far the better all round player.My only concern would be that the few times he played as striker under Dean he was ineffective but I’m sure he has studied how Thomas has got the best out of him.This isn’t a dig at Dean as Maupay was our first choice striker and we set up a lot different these days.Theres no certainties when you are paying 50 mill for a striker in the PL but at around 20 mill plus add ons it’s a fair gamble.

I hope you are right, my concern is that there are just so may players who hit 20+ goals in the Chamipionship but aren't good enough for the Premier League, Dwight Gayle, Lewis Grabban, Matej Vydra, Che Adams etc etc. £25M is still a lot of money. I don't question that Watkins is quality and a work horse, but from what I've seen of him I'm just not yet convinced that he will be a hit in the Premier League.

What is your assessment of Maupay, do you think he has performed in the PL in the way you would have expected, or has he been better or worse than you thought?

[Brentfordnylons]

11 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I hope you are right, my concern is that there are just so may players who hit 20+ goals in the Chamipionship but aren't good enough for the Premier League, Dwight Gayle, Lewis Grabban, Matej Vydra, Che Adams etc etc. £25M is still a lot of money. I don't question that Watkins is quality and a work horse, but from what I've seen of him I'm just not yet convinced that he will be a hit in the Premier League.

What is your assessment of Maupay, do you think he has performed in the PL in the way you would have expected, or has he been better or worse than you thought?

Think Maupay has done ok in his first season Scoring  10 goals at Brighton and in the PL bit like his first season for us when one of our fans posted he was the worse striker in our history.If I had the choice I’d take Watkins who’s a lot bigger and faster.

[AvonVillain]

39 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I hope you are right, my concern is that there are just so may players who hit 20+ goals in the Chamipionship but aren't good enough for the Premier League, Dwight Gayle, Lewis Grabban, Matej Vydra, Che Adams etc etc. £25M is still a lot of money. I don't question that Watkins is quality and a work horse, but from what I've seen of him I'm just not yet convinced that he will be a hit in the Premier League.

Very true. Dwight Gayle would get into any Championship team and probably help take them up. Then, consistently hopeless at the next level (apart from against Villa, which is a given for any generally hopeless striker).

[rayk]

19 minutes ago, AvonVillain said:

Very true. Dwight Gayle would get into any Championship team and probably help take them up. Then, consistently hopeless at the next level (apart from against Villa, which is a given for any generally hopeless striker).

I said earlier on today I think Samatta would score a hatful in the Championship had we been relegated.

[useless]

Watkins is a completely different type of striker to Gayle, has a much better all round game, and for what it's worth Gayles goals to minutes ratio in the premier league is actually very decent, he's just the type of centre-forward that's fell out of favor in the modern game.

You can name many strikers who've come from the championship and failed but equally you can name many that have come from the championship and done well at premier league level, looking at last season's leading scorers, Vardy, Ings, Abraham, Wood, Maupay and Pukki, all initially made names for themselves in the championship, go back to the leading scorers for the season before and you can add to Wilson, Joshua King, Andre Gray, Deeney, Glenn Murray, and Ashley Barnes to that list.