Johan Lange

[hippo]

2 hours ago, Villastine said:

Is it just a coincidence that Easah Suliman went there? 

Delighted to see him starting a few games for them. Thought it was a good move for the lad.

But now wondering if there was already some form of link!?

Exciting times ahead if our owner is able to trade a player who never made the villa first team - for a whole football club

[hippo]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

I share the same opinion.

The other thing which gets me thinking.....there is no hard and fast rule to say which style brings success.....the way you play can be dictated to, by the players you have and vice versa.

The idea of a club style to ensure if a manager leaves it can be continued is just an opinion or a way to go ,by folk who choose that way.....not necessarily the right way......as an example , if a top class manager was available, with a huge pedigree, but didn't play "our way" would we avoid him?....if we was in the market for a manager.

Football is such a moving feast, so many factors changing all the time, people coming and going, it's hard to set some things in tablets of stone......most styles in the Prem vary from club to club.

I think the football manager has to set the tone and style and the subordinate teams comply to his philosophy.

 

Indeed Smith has taken much kudos for tweaking the style post lockdown.

 

[hippo]

3 hours ago, thabucks said:

Off topic but I think the Bruno Lage to replace Smith was either somewhat  true or they got confused as he is Now lined up to manage ...You guesses it  vitoria SC ... probs until Smith gets the boot.

Back on topic If you put the pieces together regarding Suso’s departure then I reckon his replacement would be fully lined up and may be on notice/garden leave or is already briefed and working on targets before their official appointment is announced. No way we would put ourselves at a disadvantage by not having a plan in place. 

Or there may be less players coming in during this window - we have a list of players to target and get on with landing these. The sporting director comes on board in due course .....if at all...

[villa4europe]

4 hours ago, useless said:

James Nursey said that Sawiris is buying a stake in Vitoria to try and emulate the relationship that Man City have with Girona. Not that Nursey is very reliable, but in this case there's probably a good chance that he has the right idea, City loan a lot of their young players for Girona for experience and also to Girona's B team who play in the lower leagues of Spain, Vitoria also have a B team that play in the lower leagues of Portugal, if something comes of it might be a good chance for our youngsters to get some experience at an higher level than U23 football, either with the senior side if they're deemed ready or good enough with the B side.

Not sure if it has anything to do with who Suso's replacement is going to be though.

The thing for me is there's seemingly no restriction of young South Americans joining the Portuguese league

We scout the **** out of the place, sign some 18 year olds for vitoria, 3 years time they hit 21, break through to the national team, qualify for a work permit.. Seal their £500k move to Aston Villa

It could be a work permit loophole, they can sign players that we can't, with the idea and sales pitch always being that they end up here 

[useless]

Don't know if it's still in place but Vitoria had a link up with Vasco da Gama, Luiz's club in Brazil before joining CIty, at one point. Edit: Just checked and there hasn't been much of an exchange of players between the two clubs so maybe that link up was for different reasons. Although they currently have six Brazilians in their squad according to transfermarkt, so obviously a market they use.

Edited July 29, 2020 by useless

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

The thing for me is there's seemingly no restriction of young South Americans joining the Portuguese league

We scout the **** out of the place, sign some 18 year olds for vitoria, 3 years time they hit 21, break through to the national team, qualify for a work permit.. Seal their £500k move to Aston Villa

It could be a work permit loophole, they can sign players that we can't, with the idea and sales pitch always being that they end up here 

We have 2 already.....but nothing wrong with the suggestion.

Our best Player is English, that might be a way to go.

its not what country they come from, its can they do a job.

I get the point, the portuguese breed good technical players.....but what about the Centre Backs, full backs CDM's....they need to have a different outlook.

we can't sign a team of ball players and expect a team.....other qualities need to be sought too.

Edited July 29, 2020 by TRO

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, hippo said:

Indeed Smith has taken much kudos for tweaking the style post lockdown.

 

and thats fair IMO

He said himself ,lockdown, give him an opportunity for a time to reflect.....He played all the games back and maybe seen things he had missed, in his first Prem Season.....good on him....it worked.

[weedman]

21 minutes ago, TRO said:

I share the same opinion.

The other thing which gets me thinking.....there is no hard and fast rule to say which style brings success.....the way you play can be dictated to, by the players you have and vice versa.

The idea of a club style to ensure if a manager leaves it can be continued is just an opinion or a way to go ,by folk who choose that way.....not necessarily the right way......as an example , if a top class manager was available, with a huge pedigree, but didn't play "our way" would we avoid him?....if we was in the market for a manager.

Football is such a moving feast, so many factors changing all the time, people coming and going, it's hard to set some things in tablets of stone......most styles in the Prem vary from club to club.

I think the football manager has to set the tone and style and the subordinate teams comply to his philosophy.

 

Although a lot depends on the scale and just how far away the manager was from our "philosophy" in theory yes, we absolutely should avoid him. Chopping and changing managerial styles is one of the major reasons for our demise under Randy. Going from a man managing, defensive, direct counter attacking MON, to a technical, short passing, slow build up Houllier to a defensive, dour, dreary Alex McLeish to a supposed attacking fast paced Lambert who turned into a defensive slow paced bore, onto gung ho attacking lads lads lads Tim Sherwood etc etc etc.

If we want to play a slow build up patient short passing game then there's no point hiring a Jose Mourinho is there? We don't have the players to suit his style so even though he's a step up, it's not worth replacing the whole team for him. Styles can be slightly different while in the same bracket though, I mean each Brentford manager is a bit different to the one before, but they all fit the ethos and the general style and therefore they can bring the best out of the players who were specifically purchased for that style, they aren't going out and bringing in a Steve Bruce type, because their players couldn't play his way 

[hippo]

Just now, TRO said:

and thats fair IMO

He said himself ,lockdown, give him an opportunity for a time to reflect.....He played all the games back and maybe seen things he had missed, in his first Prem Season.....good on him....it worked.

The point I was making (albeit badly !) Is the idea that the football club retains a style when the head coach changes and the DOF facilitates this.

But here we have a style change mid season - which has paid massive dividends.

[Tomaszk]

I'm not sure I want anyone except Dan Ashworth.

Brighton have signed Joel Veltman from Ajax for £1m ffs. What's going on.

[hippo]

2 minutes ago, weedman said:

Although a lot depends on the scale and just how far away the manager was from our "philosophy" in theory yes, we absolutely should avoid him. Chopping and changing managerial styles is one of the major reasons for our demise under Randy. Going from a man managing, defensive, direct counter attacking MON, to a technical, short passing, slow build up Houllier to a defensive, dour, dreary Alex McLeish to a supposed attacking fast paced Lambert who turned into a defensive slow paced bore, onto gung ho attacking lads lads lads Tim Sherwood etc etc etc.

If we want to play a slow build up patient short passing game then there's no point hiring a Jose Mourinho is there? We don't have the players to suit his style so even though he's a step up, it's not worth replacing the whole team for him. Styles can be slightly different while in the same bracket though, I mean each Brentford manager is a bit different to the one before, but they all fit the ethos and the general style and therefore they can bring the best out of the players who were specifically purchased for that style, they aren't going out and bringing in a Steve Bruce type, because their players couldn't play his way 

I agree - but you're reference point was a time when our club was run by idiots.

To me it wouldn't neccesrily need a DOF to see that the managers above weren't suitable.

[sne]

Some are taking a to literal view. It's not that all managers a club employs must play the exact same type of football in the exact same way. 

There is a huge amount of flexibility even at clubs like Barcelona or Benfica. But there is a red line that runs through the club.

And the players doesn't need to be English, Brazilian or whatever to make it work. And as always the main job for the head coach is to make the best of what he has and to improve the individual players as well as the team.

Every single club in Europe works this way and has for ages. 

[Mazrim]

5 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

I'm not sure I want anyone except Dan Ashworth.

Brighton have signed Joel Veltman from Ajax for £1m ffs. What's going on.

Is he not shit? He must be.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, weedman said:

Although a lot depends on the scale and just how far away the manager was from our "philosophy" in theory yes, we absolutely should avoid him. Chopping and changing managerial styles is one of the major reasons for our demise under Randy. Going from a man managing, defensive, direct counter attacking MON, to a technical, short passing, slow build up Houllier to a defensive, dour, dreary Alex McLeish to a supposed attacking fast paced Lambert who turned into a defensive slow paced bore, onto gung ho attacking lads lads lads Tim Sherwood etc etc etc.

If we want to play a slow build up patient short passing game then there's no point hiring a Jose Mourinho is there? We don't have the players to suit his style so even though he's a step up, it's not worth replacing the whole team for him. Styles can be slightly different while in the same bracket though, I mean each Brentford manager is a bit different to the one before, but they all fit the ethos and the general style and therefore they can bring the best out of the players who were specifically purchased for that style, they aren't going out and bringing in a Steve Bruce type, because their players couldn't play his way 

I guess it depends on the degrees of difference as you say.

However, hypothetically would Sean Dyche play the way he does if he had the Man City job......would Chris Wilder play his way, if he had Liverpool.

I would suspect you cut your cloth according to what you have.....its about securing points in the first instance, so you play a way to ensure them...when thats established, next to add the cherry to the cake......or you play football too soon and get dismantled every game.

its tricky.

[villa4europe]

5 minutes ago, Mazrim said:

Is he not shit? He must be.

Did his knee 2 seasons ago and struggled to get back in ever since

They've taken a punt on 2 decent name players with ropey injury records for very little money (salary aside) 

[Tomaszk]

3 minutes ago, Mazrim said:

Is he not shit? He must be.

He's not Dani Alves but he's definitely a bargain for £1m. 200 games for Ajax and 20 Netherlands caps.

Will be great rotation RB for them.

They could probably sell him next week for £5m if he was on the move. Weird clause apparently that meant they got him for so cheap.

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, hippo said:

The point I was making (albeit badly !) Is the idea that the football club retains a style when the head coach changes and the DOF facilitates this.

But here we have a style change mid season - which has paid massive dividends.

Yes, and it mirrors my point......I am not convinced with this tablets of stone style, it seems a bit rigid to me.....will Leeds change their style if Biesla leaves...probably.

If you study the top teams....the first thing you notice is their technical abilities, the passing, the first touch, the off the ball running, the positional sense.......but then look a little deeper at their physicality, their closing down the space, their off the ball work, their aerial ball work, their appetite for work and running......these teams are great, because they have the whole lot, not just the eye candy......if you want to mix it, they will mix it.

Edited July 29, 2020 by TRO

[weedman]

Just now, TRO said:

I guess it depends on the degrees of difference as you say.

However, hypothetically would Sean Dyche play the way he does if he had the Man City job......would Chris Wilder play his way, if he had Liverpool.

I would suspect you cut your cloth according to what you have.....its about securing points in the first instance, so you play a way to ensure them...when thats established, next to add the cherry to the cake......or you play football too soon and get dismantled every game.

its tricky.

It's not that tricky though, I can tell you now, unless he demonstrates a major turnaround in his managerial style, Sean Dyche will never get the Man City job or Barcelona job even if he wins the Champions League with Burnley, because his style does not suit those teams. In the same way Jose Mourinho will never get jobs managing those teams 

Managerial style isn't just telling the players to play a certain way, it affects every aspect of game management, recruitment, training etc. Sean Dyche has been at Burnley a long time and signed a lot of players, he's never shown any interest in playing any kind of passing football. He plays direct. He trains players to play that way and signs players that can play that way. No club is hiring him to emulate Pep Guardiola. Same with the likes of Warnock or Bruce, they are what they are, if that's what you want great, if not you hire someone else 

[Villastine]

58 minutes ago, TRO said:

I share the same opinion.

The other thing which gets me thinking.....there is no hard and fast rule to say which style brings success.....the way you play can be dictated to, by the players you have and vice versa.

The idea of a club style to ensure if a manager leaves it can be continued is just an opinion or a way to go ,by folk who choose that way.....not necessarily the right way......as an example , if a top class manager was available, with a huge pedigree, but didn't play "our way" would we avoid him?....if we was in the market for a manager.

Football is such a moving feast, so many factors changing all the time, people coming and going, it's hard to set some things in tablets of stone......most styles in the Prem vary from club to club.

I think the football manager has to set the tone and style and the subordinate teams comply to his philosophy.

 

The role is about much more than this.

It's about ensuring the club is focusing on recruiting and developing players that are technically good and also tactically astute.

It's a long term project and needs be overseen by someone who's not immediately judged by results on the pitch.

Managers have to focus on the short term and some tension between the 2 should be expected.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, weedman said:

It's not that tricky though, I can tell you now, unless he demonstrates a major turnaround in his managerial style, Sean Dyche will never get the Man City job or Barcelona job even if he wins the Champions League with Burnley, because his style does not suit those teams. In the same way Jose Mourinho will never get jobs managing those teams 

Managerial style isn't just telling the players to play a certain way, it affects every aspect of game management, recruitment, training etc. Sean Dyche has been at Burnley a long time and signed a lot of players, he's never shown any interest in playing any kind of passing football. He plays direct. He trains players to play that way and signs players that can play that way. No club is hiring him to emulate Pep Guardiola. Same with the likes of Warnock or Bruce, they are what they are, if that's what you want great, if not you hire someone else 

I did say Hypothetically....of course he wouldn't get the job.....He plays the way he does, because he thinks he has to with what he has and the same for the others.

If you don't have the comparable resource you have to find a way to compete...is all I am saying.

I would love our owners to go out and do a Man City, but its not realistic, so we have to find ways to compete and trying to play their style with sub standard players to theirs is naive.