Relegation thread

[villalad21]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Yes, I agree.

but I think it highlights ,you need both.

I also think its incumbent on the manager/ recruitment staff to get the right players to play the way they want....else like you say they can't.

I think the teams that do go up with a sound defence seem better prepared to what lies ahead in the bigger league.....that does not mean, i am advocating all defence no offence, that is not what i am saying, but if you can defend as a team when required, it does give you a more rounded team.

Norwich while scoring 90 odd goals, conceded 57.that is high for a title winning side, 40/45 is average, while we conceded 61....sheff utd more miserly have carried that on this season.

There are no hard and fast rules as i described in my earlier post.

Wolves were defensively solid as well. Only 39 goals against in the 17/18 season. But they also scored a lot of goals.

Which means you can have both worlds. You don't have to pick one and sacrifice the other.

Edited May 13, 2020 by villalad21

[PaulC]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Yes, I agree.

but I think it highlights ,you need both.

I also think its incumbent on the manager/ recruitment staff to get the right players to play the way they want....else like you say they can't.

I think the teams that do go up with a sound defence seem better prepared to what lies ahead in the bigger league.....that does not mean, i am advocating all defence no offence, that is not what i am saying, but if you can defend as a team when required, it does give you a more rounded team.

Norwich while scoring 90 odd goals, conceded 57.that is high for a title winning side, 40/45 is average, while we conceded 61....sheff utd more miserly have carried that on this season.

There are no hard and fast rules as i described in my earlier post.

Yes I agree you need both but as in the case of Liverpool you can play attacking football yet still be good defensively 

[TRO]

I can see the attraction in keeping Dean Smith if we go down.

but last season we conceded 61 goals....I cannot see much, conceding like that.

Its well documented Dean likes attacking football, it comes as  no surprise, we all do.

However, I can't see us going up automatically with a team that defends with gay abandon.

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Yes I agree you need both but as in the case of Liverpool you can play attacking football yet still be good defensively 

Absolutely....my idea of a good team.

its that balance that is crucial.

Edited May 13, 2020 by TRO

[villalad21]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I can see the attraction in keeping Dean Smith if we go down.

but last season we conceded 61 goals....I cannot see much, conceding like that.

Its well documented Dean likes attacking football, it comes as  no surprise, we all do.

However, I can't see us going up automatically with a team that defends with gay abandon.

Unless El Ghazi and Trezeguet suddenly turn into world beaters.

Still don't see where the creativity is coming from when/if we lose Jack.

Hourihane probably yes. But even in the Championship he has been fairly inconsistent.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Wolves were defensively solid as well. Only 39 goals against in the 17/18 season. But they also scored a lot of goals.

Which means you can have both worlds. You don't have to pick one and sacrifice the other.

Bang On the money.

Which is exactly the point i was trying to make.

[nick76]

37 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

 

1. We went 10 games without winning a game when Jack was out injured. See this is a big question mark i have. Where is the creativity coming from if Jack leaves? Everything we do goes through Jack. Will El Ghazi and Trezeguet suddenly turn into world beaters?

2. We won't be able to invest like we have done in the Premier League.

1.  Guess we have to find out if that happens. I still think if we arent relegated then Jack will be staying, if he stays we'll add to the team that will hopefully take some burden off Jack, probably not as good as Jack but that is hard to do for the elite but hopefully we can add some creativity....this leads to your second point.

2. How do you know we wont be able to invest like we have already done. 

I'm not saying we will but the owners have kept saying their ambitions, and you cant do that on a shoestring budget.  We know about FFP, we have Purslow who knows better about that than we do, so there must be a plan, there has to be because as you said a few posts ago, they are looking to be a top 10 team or better in the next 3 or so years.  This will always require investment as even the teams in those positions continually invest so we have to invest. 

How they get around FFP I dont know but they must because even if we fail to get there we, I assume, still invest to try and get there.  We all know good players are not 7 figure sums these days but regularly multiples of 8 figure sums so that soon adds up to original investment even if spread over a couple of windows.  Who knows!

[nick76]

7 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Unless El Ghazi and Trezeguet suddenly turn into world beaters.

Still don't see where the creativity is coming from when/if we lose Jack.

Hourihane probably yes. But even in the Championship he has been fairly inconsistent.

If we lose Jack then we'll invest that money buying creativity.....it's not like we lose Jack and get nothing in replacement

[nick76]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

Absolutely....my idea of a good team.

its that balance that is crucial.

To be fair if we were that then we would be top 8 team.  That's what teams below that struggle with below that, they are either good defensively but poor attacking or vice versa, or rely on one or two players or are too inconsistent or have good all round but dont have the quality.  Sheff Utd have the final one and have really out performed this season but it'll be interesting to see if they can do the same next season, I'm not convinced.  Terms that are balanced are the teams in the top 8 hence why they are top 8 teams.

[Zhan_Zhuang]

50 minutes ago, nick76 said:

If we lose Jack then we'll invest that money buying creativity.....it's not like we lose Jack and get nothing in replacement

Saïd Benrahma

 

[John]

Should we find ourselves in the Championship next year,  Dean Smith would not be the only one that could be deemed responsible in my opinion, I would say that the PL and the decisions they take in the coming weeks, will have had a major impact on our fate. 

I also bet that the EFL will be looking forward to looking at our FFP situation once again, should we be among them again next season due in part to their insistence on getting their teams promoted and PL teams relegated for so called "integrity". 

[VillaChris]

56 minutes ago, nick76 said:

If we lose Jack then we'll invest that money buying creativity.....it's not like we lose Jack and get nothing in replacement

Yes last time we went down with a much worse team and within three months had signed Jedinak, Chester, Adomah, Kodjia, McCormack. A few flops in there but others who made it to Wembley and played key parts in getting us up.

If we're selling all these key players we'd obviously have a massive transfer warchest to play with. Add in the loan market and being able to attract likes of Abraham and Snodgrass last time we were down and I don't see a huge problem.

We were in the top 6 when Grealish was injured up to January of 17-18 if you want to spin it the other way and that was a stronger division than 18-19 imo due to the presence of Wolves and Fulham.

[VillaChris]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

Unless El Ghazi and Trezeguet suddenly turn into world beaters.

Still don't see where the creativity is coming from when/if we lose Jack.

Hourihane probably yes. But even in the Championship he has been fairly inconsistent.

You forgetting 17-18 when Grealish was injured up to the January? We had a very slow start to that season but were 3rd or 4th when he came back.

[villalad21]

1 hour ago, VillaChris said:

You forgetting 17-18 when Grealish was injured up to the January? We had a very slow start to that season but were 3rd or 4th when he came back.

True but that was under Bruce.

JT and Chester were very good for us and we had a decent defence.

We only conceded 40 goals or something all season.

I don't trust Guilbert, Engels, Mings and Targett to organize anything, even in the Championship. I might be wrong and have to eat my words, but i have my doubts.

I do believe if we continue with this same setup of coaches and players we would be conceding 50-60 goals even in the Championship.

Edited May 13, 2020 by villalad21

[TRO]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

To be fair if we were that then we would be top 8 team.  That's what teams below that struggle with below that, they are either good defensively but poor attacking or vice versa, or rely on one or two players or are too inconsistent or have good all round but dont have the quality.  Sheff Utd have the final one and have really out performed this season but it'll be interesting to see if they can do the same next season, I'm not convinced.  Terms that are balanced are the teams in the top 8 hence why they are top 8 teams.

I can't argue with that as a general rule....but lets give Sheff Utd the benefit of the doubt for a minute......I don't think they will faulter next season, might not have the impact of surprise, but I think they have their Model right.

Lets take the following clubs, while they are established in the league granted, but lets look at the balance between goals for and against,to date, respectively....I still happen to think points is the holy grail, but goals are one indicator of a balanced team.

10th..Burnley  34/40.....Sean Dyche

11th Crystal Palace 26/32.....Roy Hodgson

12th Everton 37/46......Carlo Anchelotti

13th Newcastle 25/41....Steve Bruce

 We are 19th at 34/56

Only Everton have scored more goals than us....Its clear where our problem is, but outside this site, i.e in other media outlets or from the club, I do not see or hear noises of concern to that affect.

I understand it is our first season back, but it was Sheff Utd's too.....we must endeavour to address the issue....we are clearly what we are, but the target must be, to tighten up.

Looking at the Managers above, it does not surprise me, that they have such a handle on defending.....and while I totally agree with your point about the top 8....its clear defensive efficiencies are elsewhere in the table too

We are in the quicksand for a reason, while still harbouring one of the best creative midfielders in the country, that is even more alarming.

I do not have an opinion on Dean Smith one way or the other.....but he really has to get a grip of this embarrassing stat.

Edited May 13, 2020 by TRO

[Zatman]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

I can see the attraction in keeping Dean Smith if we go down.

but last season we conceded 61 goals....I cannot see much, conceding like that.

Its well documented Dean likes attacking football, it comes as  no surprise, we all do.

However, I can't see us going up automatically with a team that defends with gay abandon.

61 goals were not all under Smith. Defence improved when he came in compared to the cabbage who shall not be named

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52635003

 

Quote

 

Amiens have started legal proceedings for their "unjust" relegation after France's Ligue 1 season was ended early because of the coronavirus crisis.

Paris St-Germain were awarded the title last month, with Amiens and Toulouse relegated, after the French government cancelled the 2019-20 sporting season.

Amiens were 19th in the table, four points behind Nimes and 10 points ahead of Toulouse, with 10 games to play.

Club president Bernard Joannin said they would fight the "unfair decision".

He said in a news conference: "We find that this decision goes against sporting fairness. The decision is a punishment from the league. It is unjust.

"We have been forced into fighting, into going to court to try to overturn this unfair decision."

Earlier this month, Amiens launched a petition asking that the league's governing body, Ligue de Football Professionnel, reconsider its decision to relegate the two sides and instead have 22 teams instead of 20 in the top division in 2020-21.

This would include Lorient and Lens, who have been promoted from Ligue 2.

Club lawyer Christophe Bertrand said: "We are not contesting the decision to stop the season. That is not really the object of these proceedings. It would be a bit inappropriate.

"However, what we are contesting are the consequences of the decisions that were taken."

 

 

Wonder if we could find ourselves in a similar situation.

[John]

The decision that is made on Amiens, could set a bit of a precedent. 

[VillaChris]

6 hours ago, villalad21 said:

True but that was under Bruce.

JT and Chester were very good for us and we had a decent defence.

We only conceded 40 goals or something all season.

I don't trust Guilbert, Engels, Mings and Targett to organize anything, even in the Championship. I might be wrong and have to eat my words, but i have my doubts.

I do believe if we continue with this same setup of coaches and players we would be conceding 50-60 goals even in the Championship.

Not right at the start, we lost 3-0 at Cardiff and also conceded 2 v Norwich. From October onwards is when we became defensively hard to score past against decent teams in the division.

Seems you don't rate Mings much at all now but he was imperious in the run in last season and a fair few games of that were alongside Hause. And seeing as you like to bring up the Brentford defensive stats post Smith last season, Konsa played in the majority of those games!

As good as Grealish was this time last year he wasn't also playing in back 4 last time I looked.

If Mings goes then I'd look to get Pontus Jansson in. Still not even 30 and he's the sort of cult hero we'd need to fill the void if we lost key players. All our good teams usually have a nordic CB aswell.

[TRO]

On 13/05/2020 at 20:51, VillaChris said:

Not right at the start, we lost 3-0 at Cardiff and also conceded 2 v Norwich. From October onwards is when we became defensively hard to score past against decent teams in the division.

Seems you don't rate Mings much at all now but he was imperious in the run in last season and a fair few games of that were alongside Hause. And seeing as you like to bring up the Brentford defensive stats post Smith last season, Konsa played in the majority of those games!

As good as Grealish was this time last year he wasn't also playing in back 4 last time I looked.

If Mings goes then I'd look to get Pontus Jansson in. Still not even 30 and he's the sort of cult hero we'd need to fill the void if we lost key players. All our good teams usually have a nordic CB aswell.

Its the likes of Jansson that should be playing alongside Mings, not replacing him.

thats our  general problem, we don't add good players to existing good players, we just struggle along with inferior players, until the good ones get fed up and leave. It didn't take Idrissa gueye long to establish what he had walked in to.

We sign good players too infrequently, but are a magnet for average joe's......and we wonder why we can't progress sufficiently to establish a foothold in the Prem.

Edited May 17, 2020 by TRO