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villakram

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The ‘Cummings did it’ narrative is partisan parp of the highest order. 

The tweet thread below contains a link to the minutes of the various SAGE meetings concerning this virus/crisis, but if you don’t want to read through all that scientific guidance being given to government then the thread of tweets provides an interesting summary - and shows things were far from clear cut. 

 

That won’t necessarily fit everyone’s preferred narrative of what actually happened, but there it is. 

FWIW I haven’t defended the government or their clear mistakes at any point, but the shortages we now face in vital kit are systemic, being years not weeks in the making. 

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32 minutes ago, Awol said:

They did, in Italy Ministers were out in northern towns and cities embracing Chinese tourists in the streets for the cameras, encouraging locals to do the same and stressing how safe everything was.

In Spain they held a series of mass feminist rallies across the country just days before their outbreak flared up. 

Their responses weren’t that different to ours at all in the early stages, and didn’t Italy’s lockdown only start 12 days or so before ours? 

I’m not sure you want to be in a bracket of countries that matched Italy and Spain’s response. There have been other countries adopting very different responses from the beginning (and it wasn’t about lockdowns of the population).

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16 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Certain areas of Italy were under lockdown from February 22nd. That was expanded to most of northern Italy on March 7th and the whole country on March 9th. 

Chinese data doesn't have much to do with the Government announcing on March 10th that there is no reason to postpone sporting events, describing outdoor gatherings as "relatively safe" and allowing the Cheltenham festival to take place a week after Italy was in full lockdown. 

I've been looking for that video of someone (it may have been Grant Shapps?) being interviewed at that point, and saying how the UK was taking measures that were 'guided by science', while European countries were taking drastic measures like lockdowns 'that don't have much evidence to support them' or words to that effect. Do you know the one I mean?

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7 minutes ago, Awol said:

The ‘Cummings did it’ narrative is partisan parp of the highest order. 

The tweet thread below contains a link to the minutes of the various SAGE meetings concerning this virus/crisis, but if you don’t want to read through all that scientific guidance being given to government then the thread of tweets provides an interesting summary - and shows things were far from clear cut. 

 

That won’t necessarily fit everyone’s preferred narrative of what actually happened, but there it is. 

FWIW I haven’t defended the government or their clear mistakes at any point, but the shortages we now face in vital kit are systemic, being years not weeks in the making. 

Years of Tory rule.

 

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38 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

The Italians and Spanish  were probably led by Dominic Cummings  :rolleyes:

The Italians who were 2/3 weeks ahead of us. We watched their failings, and matched them.

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48 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Chinese data doesn't have much to do with the Government announcing on March 10th that there is no reason to postpone sporting events, describing outdoor gatherings as "relatively safe" and allowing the Cheltenham festival to take place a week after Italy was in full lockdown. 

This x 10000000. They saw what was going on in Italy and chose to do the above.

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46 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Just walked to the office  , bit of exercise and a few bits I can't do remotely

The local poles who run a car cleaning place were shut down by the police a week ago ..today they are re-open albeit they close the shutter at the front so the casual police car driving past can't see they are still working   ,  2 cars in as a walked past , looked like at least one more waiting their turn  ..... seems people have different definitions of essential

 

If they're self employed and have no money coming in at the moment it's quite easy to understand how they may view it as essential as an alternative to starving to death!

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@terrytini

Not sure how you can call the actual records deceitful, unless that’s your take on Freedman’s summary? 

They were contact tracing and isolating (remember the Wuhan returnees on buses from Brize Norton?) well before March, the failure (in my unqualified opinion) was not to take more drastic action as soon as it was clear the Chinese were lying and Italy was going south. 

Agree entirely about how it looked from the cheap seats by mid-Feb’, that’s why I, like you, went full prepper back then and got ready for where we are now. 

What I’ve seen no evidence for is the assertion that Cummings was squatting in No.10, persuading Boris to ignore everything linked to above.

All I have seen is a few journalists (who’ve been trying to get rid of him from day one) supposedly summarizing his ‘position’, while failing to provide direct quotes - quelle surprise. 

Even if he did think that, the idea that the executive marched to his tune while rejecting the combined advice of SAGE isn’t credible - but is being endlessly alleged anyway by people providing no proof. 

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30 minutes ago, Awol said:

The ‘Cummings did it’ narrative is partisan parp of the highest order. 

I think you'd be surprised.

I know people who work for the Conservative party with senior figures as well as working with someone whose dad socialises with Boris regularly and all these sources seem to see Cummings as a big driving force.

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Just now, Awol said:

@terrytini

Not sure how you can call the actual records deceitful, unless that’s your take on Freedman’s summary? 

They were contact tracing and isolating (remember the Wuhan returnees on buses from Brize Norton?) well before March, the failure (in my unqualified opinion) was not to take more drastic action as soon as it was clear the Chinese were lying and Italy was going south. 

Agree entirely about how it looked from the cheap seats by mid-Feb’, that’s why I, like you, went full prepper back then and got ready for where we are now. 

What I’ve seen no evidence for is the assertion that Cummings was squatting in No.10, persuading Boris to ignore everything linked to above.

All I have seen is a few journalists (who’ve been trying to get rid of him from day one) supposedly summarizing his ‘position’, while failing to provide direct quotes - quelle surprise. 

Even if he did think that, the idea that the executive marched to his tune while rejecting the combined advice of SAGE isn’t credible - but is being endlessly alleged anyway by people providing no proof. 

Line 1 : apologies I didn’t make it clear....whilst what the guy has posted is literally correct, my point is it misses the point.

...contact and trace - I’m afraid drips and drabs in an ad hoc manner aren’t what I was referring to...

....Cummings is intimately involved in every Government decision in the same way Mandleson used to be. That’s clear from many many reports over the months. Nothing happens without his involvement. Additionally I have seen - weeks ago - various links between him and some of the behavioural experts. I also recall seeing a direct quote from a Cabinet Minister saying he had done a complete U Turn having originally been completely against Lockdown.

...this Government is full of people who reject expert advice, it’s their default position.

Anyway, you have asserted your view, and I’ve given mine....I think that’s me all Cummingsed out 👍

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10 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I think you'd be surprised.

I know people who work for the Conservative party with senior figures as well as working with someone whose dad socialises with Boris regularly and all these sources seem to see Cummings as a big driving force.

I wondered whether to mention it, but I have a one step removed connection to Nick Timothy, (for clarity,  he doesn’t know me though, and I don’t know him, )the sacked T May advisor, and 100% echo that. He is behind everything they do.

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6 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I think you'd be surprised.

I know people who work for the Conservative party with senior figures as well as working with someone whose dad socialises with Boris regularly and all these sources seem to see Cummings as a big driving force.

I’m not surprised at all. The public will rightly demand heads after this, and Cummings is an outsider who openly holds most Tory MPs in contempt. 

A more realistic account might be that when the huge pandemic exercise took place in 2016 it identified PPE and ventilation capacity shortfalls as critical problems.

The results were suppressed by team Cameron/Osborne who didn’t give a crap about national security and resilience, especially where it conflicted with needless levels of austerity. 

I can’t imagine any of the Ministers currently refusing to answer straight questions laying that all out and taking responsibility. But they are collectively responsible - and those Eton wide-boys need firing into the sun. 

‘Dom did it’ looks a much better line to take, doesn’t it? 

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28 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

The Italians who were 2/3 weeks ahead of us. We watched their failings, and matched them.

And we only had half as many ICU beds (per capita) as them, to start with. 

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7 minutes ago, Awol said:

I’m not surprised at all. The public will rightly demand heads after this, and Cummings is an outsider who openly holds most Tory MPs in contempt. 

A more realistic account might be that when the huge pandemic exercise took place in 2016 it identified PPE and ventilation capacity shortfalls as critical problems.

The results were suppressed by team Cameron/Osborne who didn’t give a crap about national security and resilience, especially where it conflicted with needless levels of austerity. 

I can’t imagine any of the Ministers currently refusing to answer straight questions laying that all out and taking responsibility. But they are collectively responsible - and those Eton wide-boys need firing into the sun. 

‘Dom did it’ looks a much better line to take, doesn’t it? 

They should all be for the chop frankly, but interesting that you see Cummings as an outsider, when he's been involved in politics for 20 odd years.

I guess his break the system approach or however he styles it puts him at odds with traditional politics, although i think his self-promoted maverick tag is more style than substance, there's more than a whiff of 6th form 'railing against the establishment' politics about him. There's various analysis of his blog out there, and the gist seems to be that when people dig down into it, its basically a lot of half-baked thoughts and ideas; he reads a lot of very technical stuff and gains enough superficial knowledge, but then thinks he understands the whole subject as well as the original author.

I would say that's his real genius actually, although he is obviously smart, he's managed to convince a lot of people he's much cleverer than he actually is. The problem is when you get events like those happening now, and you've worked your way into a position of power as some sort of all knowing guru, people think you have the knowledge to fix everything, and if you don't...

 

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3 hours ago, Genie said:

I agree with you but I think there were political reasons (at least where I work) stopping it. We were hearing that in Italy and France factory workers were refusing to work because they were being put at risk whilst office staff had it easy, and risk free at home.

I think the belief was that if people who could work from home were sent home earlier here in the UK we would have had problems with production workers.

This was the thinking behind office staff being told they still had to come in 2 or 3 times a week (until production was halted and everyone was then told to WFH).

Production at a west midland saloon car manufacturer is back on tomorrow, 80 production workers plus the support staff , probably about 120 . I kid you not 

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