Generic Virus Thread

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

Was the government advice to send patients with the symptoms of the virus back to the care home because they are an infection safe zone? I might have missed that myself.

The advice, was that anyone ill wouldn’t be helped, an ambulance would not be sent, doctors would not attend. It wasn’t so much they would be sent back to care homes, it was more that they’d never admit them from care homes. They were left for dead. If you were in a care home, you were excluded from basic medical help.

Plenty of reporting of that back in March.

You’re attempting to re write the last two months.

 

[snowychap]

19 minutes ago, Genie said:

Tbh, no it doesn’t in the very basic sense like that. If it’s raining should I close my windows? What is the government advice?

I think it's pretty obvious that, when it's raining, people without cover are going to get wet. It doesn't need the gov website to state it for people to act accordingly.

The document the quote was lifted from included the caveat that it was based on there being no rain outside.

Edited May 13, 2020 by snowychap

[Genie]

So to conclude:

Old people from care homes don’t go to hospital, except for when they do.

Doctors are trained medical professionals who apply their years of studying and experience to make people better, apart from when they don’t.

The hospitals were keen to clear the wards of people with Covid 19 and sent them home ill  because they we making space for Covid 19 patients.

Matt Hancock did say patients with Covid 19 could return to the care home where they’d be more comfortable and free up space in the hospital, but the small print was that they must be kept under strict quarantine conditions (how dare he).

Glad we got to the bottom of that.

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

So to conclude:

Old people from care homes don’t go to hospital, except for when they do.

Doctors are trained medical professionals who apply their years of studying and experience to make people better, apart from when they don’t.

The hospitals were keen to clear the wards of people with Covid 19 and sent them home ill  because they we making space for Covid 19 patients.

Matt Hancock did say patients with Covid 19 could return to the care home where they’d be more comfortable and free up space in the hospital, but the small print was that they must be kept under strict quarantine conditions (how dare he).

Glad we got to the bottom of that.

 

Do you write speeches for Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson?

I could actually read that in a de Pfeffel bluster stylee.

 

[snowychap]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

So to conclude:

An offhand suggestion that Starmer should have 'texted' his complaint to the Prime Minister instead of writing an official document, as politicians of the standing of the Leader of the Opposition always have and will continue to do, has led you to dig the hole that you have over the last few pages.

Well done.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

An offhand suggestion that Starmer should have 'texted' his complaint to the Prime Minister instead of writing an official document, as politicians of the standing of the Leader of the Opposition always have and will continue to do, has led you to dig the hole that you have over the last few pages.

Well done.

I think that’s the beauty of VT OT, you just never know where the conversation is going to take you.

[VILLAMARV]

21 minutes ago, Genie said:

If it’s raining should I close my windows? What is the government advice?

You're arguing your point as if the thing mentioned in the commons today was the only consideration.

The point of sending people out of nhs beds was to create spare capacity to treat patients. Triage decisions were made by clinicians and part of that decision was to listen to the government advice. Not only as the people overseeing the nhs but as the focal point of the entire countrys response. Older people tend to lose out in those triage decisions. And now many are dead as a result. Believe whatever you like but, again, you're oversimplifying things to argue a point from how you perceive it to be. Whether you like it or not, that website provided parts of a complicated framework for clinicians to send patients away from the care they would otherwise receive.

You're now wilfully ignoring the proof of that provided for you in this thread. 

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

So to conclude:

Old people from care homes don’t go to hospital, except for when they do.

Doctors are trained medical professionals who apply their years of studying and experience to make people better, apart from when they don’t.

The hospitals were keen to clear the wards of people with Covid 19 and sent them home ill  because they we making space for Covid 19 patients.

Matt Hancock did say patients with Covid 19 could return to the care home where they’d be more comfortable and free up space in the hospital, but the small print was that they must be kept under strict quarantine conditions (how dare he).

Glad we got to the bottom of that.

Absolutely none of that, here's what it should say

Old people from care homes NO LONGER go to hospital, those that were in hospital at the start of this or were admitted to hospital at that time were send back to care homes, whether they were infected or not, no-one checked

Doctors are trained medical professionals who triage according to the advice of the government in the current circumstances, these aren't normal times

Not one person (apart from yourself) has said hospitals were keen on anything, this again was the government advice

Matt Hancock must have known that strict quarantine cnditions were EFFING IMPOSSIBLE in any care home environment, untrained, minimum wage staff often overworked with zero clinical expertise and no PPE... how would it be possible?

By the way no here has said  The NHS Heroes® should be taking the blame for this, apart from yourself infering others had said it, when no-one has

 

 

 

 

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

It makes perfect sense to me

[DCJonah]

 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

 

Why would anybody with half a brain, let alone a trained medical professional think that someone would not transmit a virus just because they were in a care home? They wouldn’t, which confirms it isn’t a major influencing factor.

It doesn’t confirm it all unfortunately. You’ve just made that assumption. 
 

But again that wasn’t really my point. Even if it wasn’t an influencing factor, the scale of the epidemic in care homes means it’s something worth questioning, which is all Starmer was doing. And Johnson lies in response. In parliament. 

 

Your original point was that this was just political point scoring and not a big deal. The prime minister lying about official government advice regarding something of this scale is a big deal. 
 

If he’d said “that was our advice at the time but we changed it shortly afterwards and it had no effect on whether patients were discharged back into carehomes” then this wouldn’t be an issue. But he had to lie about it because he’s Boris Johnson 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Stevo985

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

 

 

Nah, not having it mate, just because it was the written official government guidance doesn’t mean the NHS had to pay it any attention.

 

[Withnail]

I didn’t see the video but it has been removed for violating YouTube’s terms of policy.

[Genie]

55 minutes ago, bickster said:

Absolutely none of that, here's what it should say

It is what is being said in this thread

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

By the way no here has said  The NHS Heroes® should be taking the blame for this, apart from yourself infering others had said it, when no-one has

I agree with the first part. Several people have suggested that the NHS are not treating elderly or vulnerable people because of government advice. I don’t believe that personally. The government have also said many times they have never been over run and have lots of capacity to treat people with Covid 19 so why would that be? It doesn’t add up in my view.

I can refer to my own personal experience of my gran-in-law being taken to hospital with some symptoms, being put in quarantine, tested and then returned to her care home once cleared.

8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Your original point was that this was just political point scoring and not a big deal.

I did a poor job of making my initial point, that a “you said one thing now you’re saying something else” was in my view less significant than some of the other enormous mistakes the government have made. I thinking wording on a website, that should have been updated was the lesser of the many crimes they are currently getting away with.

[VILLAMARV]

Just now, Withnail said:

I didn’t see the video but it has been removed for violating YouTube’s terms of policy.

Probably by aliens.

[Genie]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Matt Hancock must have known that strict quarantine cnditions were EFFING IMPOSSIBLE in any care home environment, untrained, minimum wage staff often overworked with zero clinical expertise and no PPE... how would it be possible?

Then surely the just tell the hospital the patient cannot come back (as per the process MH laid out)

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Old people from care homes NO LONGER go to hospital

Is this government official advice? If so can you please share the source of it with me. Also, what is the cutoff for being too old to be treated?

Edited May 13, 2020 by Genie

[snowychap]

9 minutes ago, Genie said:

I did a poor job of making my initial point

No, that's not correct.

Your initial point was a very poor one and you made a very poor job (of expounding it) whilst making it bigger.

[Awol]

Times and Telegraph both carrying the story that Roche have developed a 100% accurate anti body test. Porton Down have checked and approved it, PHE talking to Roche. Hopefully we can soon get a handle on how many people have actually had the virus.  

Now very curious to know if I had it last December.

[snowychap]

4 minutes ago, Awol said:

Times and Telegraph both carrying the story that Roche have developed a 100% accurate anti body test. Porton Down have checked and approved it, PHE talking to Roche. Hopefully we can soon get a handle on how many people have actually had the virus.  

Now very curious to know if I had it last December.

Interesting. 100% accurate sounds a bit fishy? Even still, does it have any idea about immunity levels?

[snowychap]

9 minutes ago, Awol said:

Now very curious to know if I had it last December.

This test is not going to tell that, is it?

Edited May 13, 2020 by snowychap