snowychap Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted May 13, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2020 Bars, restaurants and hair dressers etc. all opening in Poland next week, with distancing and cleaning measures in place and face masks still worn outside but not at a table, where you can only sit with members of your household. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Genie said: I think it’s pretty obvious..etc I just don’t accept that...etc Quote This one provides a link Healthcare workers, carers and care settings NHS guidance for people working in healthcare https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-triage-assessment-form Check the website^^^^ Quote Covid-19: How to triage effectively in a pandemic March 9, Triage in a pandemic is even thornier than you might think, say Christina Pagel and colleagues ------- Politicians and clinical leaders will stress that decisions on triage protocols are tough decisions to make, and they are right. But they are tougher decisions to implement and tougher still to be on the receiving end of. Any triage protocol will lead to tragic choices for some. This should not be left as the responsibility of individual clinicians without guidance from the NHS, the Royal Colleges, and Professional Societies to ensure consistency, equity and transparency. https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/03/09/covid-19-triage-in-a-pandemic-is-even-thornier-than-you-might-think/ British medical journal there Quote Where normally the doctors’ focus is solely on what is in the best interests of an individual, when resources are overwhelmed and not all patients can be fully treated, doctors may instead have to focus on what is in the best interests of society. In normal circumstances, the General Medical Council state that doctors must avoid such decisions. If this comes to pass in the UK, doctors will be making some of the hardest decision we have ever had to make. But we can’t do this alone. If it becomes necessary, a framework to inform these decisions should be shared with the rest of society. In this urgent crisis we need a public discussion to help guide these difficult decisions, and clear advice from our medical, philosophical and political leaders. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/23/icu-doctors-tough-decisions-coronavirus-uk Edited May 13, 2020 by VILLAMARV Read on... lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, Genie said: I think it’s pretty obvious that when a virus is going round that care homes are high risk. It doesn’t need the gov website to state it for people to act accordingly. The document the quote was lifted from included the caveat that it was based on there being no transmission in the community. It's a remarkable effort to have those three sentences in the same paragraph. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-triage-assessment-form Check the website^^^^ Erm, Marv, I'm not sure of the relevance of this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, snowychap said: Erm, Marv, I'm not sure of the relevance of this? Lol. I'm cooking 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, snowychap said: It's a remarkable effort to have those three sentences in the same paragraph. Why? It makes perfect sense to me. The document said if there was no virus transmission in the community then it would be unlikely people in the community or care home would get it. However, the big scandal is that apparently the NHS heroes decided not to treat patients because of a combination of “website said they’d be alright” and “we are making room for other people with the virus further down the line”. Edited May 13, 2020 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, VILLAMARV said: Lol. I'm cooking À la Floyd? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Enchilladas - wrong page innit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Genie said: Why? It makes perfect sense to me. The document said if there was no virus transmission in the community then it would be unlikely people in the community or care home would get it. And yet, when a virus is going round, it is pretty obvious... and it doesn't require a government website....? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) Quote Coronavirus guidance for clinicians and NHS managers https://www.england.nhs.uk/coronavirus/ That's the one In my defence the link is on the original page i quoted I have multiple tabs open and i think the point has been made. It's also funny enough to stay there unedited i think Edit - I editted it a bit, but not so much as to spoil the fun we had. Edited May 13, 2020 by VILLAMARV Added bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 13, 2020 Moderator Share Posted May 13, 2020 28 minutes ago, Genie said: I think it’s pretty obvious that when a virus is going round that care homes are high risk. It doesn’t need the gov website to state it for people to act accordingly. The document the quote was lifted from included the caveat that it was based on there being no transmission in the community. The virus was “going round” at the time and before the govt website was saying care home infection was “unlikely”. As you say, it’s “obvious” that they were at high risk. The document had a caveat at section 1 that said it was for there being no transmission in the community, but there was and the guidance was not updated. The quote was from a different section. Quote I just don’t accept that the wording causes doctors and nurses to act differently. It’s actually quite a strong accusation you (and @bickster) made suggesting that the NHS doctors and nurses were discharging sick elderly patients to care homes because of the website said they’d be ok. If the NHS were failing to treat patients against their better medical opinion then it’s something altogether more shocking. There were tests in mid-March. My sister in law had one at her house by paramedics. My wife’s Gran was kept in quarantine in Heartlands because of a risk of having it in mid-March. She was later discharged once given the all clear. The website wording didn’t make medics act a particular way. The website reflected the more detailed government stance, which was out of date, slow to react. its also true that not every elderly hossie patient was kicked out early. But some were, and they were not tested. These are not opinions, they’re facts. “I don’t accept” is your right. It looks a bit like, and I mean this kindly, “I just don’t wish to believe”. I don’t think most people want it to be true, but nevertheless the evidence is there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 13, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Genie said: I’m not surprised BJ would lie, he’s a piece of shit but I can take things on a case by case basis. This virus spreads like wildfire, everybody knows that and have known it for a long time. I don’t believe hospitals were sending people potentially with the virus back to a care homes because they thought for some reason care homes were magically impossible to transit it (because it said on the government website, slightly out of context, that it’s unlikely to spread in care homes). If hospitals were sending people with the virus back to their care home without being tested it’s a separate scandal, but not because of what was written on the gov website. But it was written on the website because it was their advice. If the official government advice was that it wouldn’t spread in carehomes then it’s not a massive leap to suggest that that’s why people were being sent back to carehomes. Im not suggesting hospitals and carehomes were googling it and doing it because it was on a website. They were probably being advised to do it. By the government. Because that was their advice. And if they weren’t, which is fair enough that might not be the reason, it’s still a very valid question and it’s clearly a massive issue regardless of who’s fault it is. So that’s why, when questioned about that massive issue in the house, the PM lying is more of a big deal than you’re making out, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 13, 2020 Moderator Share Posted May 13, 2020 52 minutes ago, snowychap said: Even Tory-centric, Tory-skewing YouGov can't bend that one like Beckham 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 29 minutes ago, Genie said: Why? It makes perfect sense to me. The document said if there was no virus transmission in the community then it would be unlikely people in the community or care home would get it. However, the big scandal is that apparently the NHS heroes decided not to treat patients because of a combination of “website said they’d be alright” and “we are making room for other people with the virus further down the line”. I’ve not been paying attention so I might have missed something. Are you advocating that individual hospitals or trusts should go against the governments ‘science lead’ guidance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 55 minutes ago, snowychap said: We’ve had enough of graphs and charts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, snowychap said: And yet, when a virus is going round, it is pretty obvious... and it doesn't require a government website....? Tbh, no it doesn’t in the very basic sense like that. If it’s raining should I close my windows? What is the government advice? If the virus is not transmitting in the community then there is no special risk for care homes. Its kind of obvious, as is the opposite scenario. 16 minutes ago, blandy said: its also true that not every elderly hossie patient was kicked out early. But some were, and they were not tested. These are not opinions, they’re facts. Yes, that could be the case, but it won’t be because of what was written on the website. It’s a massive statement to say NHS were releasing patients without testing them to spark this cull of OAP’s. 13 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: If the official government advice was that it wouldn’t spread in carehomes then it’s not a massive leap to suggest that that’s why people were being sent back to carehomes. Why would anybody with half a brain, let alone a trained medical professional think that someone would not transmit a virus just because they were in a care home? They wouldn’t, which confirms it isn’t a major influencing factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 13, 2020 Moderator Share Posted May 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Genie said: 28 minutes ago, blandy said: Yes, that could be the case, but it won’t be because of what was written on the website. It’s a massive statement to say NHS were releasing patients without testing them to spark this cull of OAP’s. Here you go. Govt position in April Quote Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, said hospital patients who tested positive for Covid-19 would continue to be discharged into care homes despite growing evidence that the policy is fuelling outbreaks and deaths. Charities and local authority leaders said the approach, designed to free up hospital beds, was "madness" because many homes do not have the resources to keep vulnerable and elderly residents safe. Read the full piece In the Torygraph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’ve not been paying attention so I might have missed something. Are you advocating that individual hospitals or trusts should go against the governments ‘science lead’ guidance? Was the government advice to send patients with the symptoms of the virus back to the care home because they are an infection safe zone? I might have missed that myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, blandy said: Here you go. Govt position in April Read the full piece In the Torygraph You missed this bit, on a day where misquoting sparked the whole debate Quote Health bosses insist coronavirus patients can be safely admitted to care homes as long as strict guidelines are maintained to prevent the virus spreading. If a safe care home cannot... I can’t go past the word cannot l... as I don’t have a subscription with that newspaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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