Generic Virus Thread

[Awol]

Just now, snowychap said:

Thanks for backing up my point - or are you suggesting that I and others like me were not incredibly critical of Campbell's input in to the Labour government and UK policy?

I’m backing up your point. Also highlighting the qualitative difference between Cummings listening to dozens of scientists having a debate On behalf of the PM, and in a previous era, his equivalent guy actually chairing the forum that includes the heads of MI5, MI6, GCHQ, Chief of the Defence Staff and others. 

I’d love to see the reaction here if ‘Dom’ was doing that!!

[snowychap]

8 minutes ago, Awol said:

I’m backing up your point. Also highlighting the qualitative difference between Cummings listening to dozens of scientists having a debate On behalf of the PM, and in a previous era, his equivalent guy actually chairing the forum that includes the heads of MI5, MI6, GCHQ, Chief of the Defence Staff and others. 

I’d love to see the reaction here if ‘Dom’ was doing that!!

Ah, okay. Sorry my reply above was a little snappy.

Edit: Did he actually chair the JIC?

Edit 2: Cummings isn't even a year in to the job, one might just imagine what he is chairing in a few years' time.

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by snowychap

[HanoiVillan]

13 minutes ago, Awol said:

Alistair Campbell used to chair the Joint Intelligence Committee!!

How well did that go, overall? 

[Awol]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

How well did that go, overall? 

About as well as I’d expect the pandemic response to go if Cummings chaired Sage. That’s the point though, everyone’s getting their knickers in a bunch because the PM’s advisor is listening to the scientists. Not making decisions - he couldn’t even if he wanted to - just listening to experts on behalf of his boss.

Seems like the most confected outrage possible, imo.

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

Trimming advice? Where is the evidence that he was doing anything other than observing? Even if he was asking questions of the scientists I see no harm in that whatsoever, in fact it seems sensible and reasonable given his role.  

I'm quite happy with him questioning the information, the reports that the scientists produce - that's commensurate with his role of thinking for Boris - but I don't think he should be involved in the process of creating those reports or that advice

I think his presence affects the results, whether knowingly and deliberately through his intervention or more subtly through his presence - what's more, I think that's why he was there.

 

[Jareth]

Before all this, other scientists were describing SAGE's output as suffering group-think - influenced by what politicians wanted the path forwards to be - quite innocently - but group-think nonetheless. Now it turns out Cummings was there, standing in for the man in power, and not one known for his timid opinions or desire to listen to others either. Are we really to believe he sat there, listening patiently, acknowledging the scientists conclusions and passing those directly on to the PM free of any filter? Come on. 

[LondonLax]

It’s probably correct that these meetings not be public information. Some of the things they discuss would probably cause huge anxiety and stress if it was public knowledge. In addition anyone seen to be expressing a controversial opinion during one of these meetings would be hounded via social media and traditional media so I can understand why it is not made available to the public. 

On the other hand, politics in the U.K. is incredibly divisive at the moment following the bitter wrangle over Brexit and trust in ‘rival’ politicians is at a low point. Any kind of secrecy at the moment is bound to be seen in a suspicious light. 

Ultimately the decision to make these meetings open to public scrutiny has to balance these two issues. 

 

[Awol]

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Before all this, other scientists were describing SAGE's output as suffering group-think - influenced by what politicians wanted the path forwards to be - quite innocently - but group-think nonetheless. Now it turns out Cummings was there, standing in for the man in power, and not one known for his timid opinions or desire to listen to others either. Are we really to believe he sat there, listening patiently, acknowledging the scientists conclusions and passing those directly on to the PM free of any filter? Come on. 

Well you could do that given no evidence to the contrary. Or you could weave together a narrative of what you imagine him to have done, based on the things you don’t like about him, then we can all proceed on the basis that’s what must have happened and go mental about it. 

[VillaChris]

Priti Patel doing another press conference.

[Jareth]

7 minutes ago, Awol said:

Well you could do that given no evidence to the contrary. Or you could weave together a narrative of what you imagine him to have done, based on the things you don’t like about him, then we can all proceed on the basis that’s what must have happened and go mental about it. 

Keep drinking the kool aid!

[ml1dch]

51 minutes ago, Awol said:

It is normal for PM’s only to chair COBRA meetings when it involves many departments and/or major strategic decisions need to be made. We have Cabinet government with Ministers responsible for running their departments. It’s not a Presidential model.

Well, sure. 

Unfortunately though citing "normal" precedent as justification when things aren't "normal" doesn't really work does it?

"Normal" is for there not to be a Government minister on TV every afternoon telling us how many tens of thousands of people have now died. 

[chrisp65]

Nothing to see here, just a lazy PM that can’t be bothered to attend meetings during a pandemic sending his right wing blogger mate to influence a committee on how best to stop tens of thousands dying.

I have every faith in this current set up. What could possibly go wrong?

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Nothing to see here, just a lazy PM that can’t be bothered to attend meetings during a pandemic sending his right wing blogger mate to influence a committee on how best to stop tens of thousands dying.

I have every faith in this current set up. What could possibly go wrong?

 

 

Not just him, but Ben Warner, a data scientist who worked for Vote Leave. On what planet is he adding any scientific value?

[chrisp65]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

Not just him, but Ben Warner, a data scientist who worked for Vote Leave. On what planet is he adding any scientific value?

Oh, they’re just observing, then reporting back in a completely neutral factual way and then not influencing the people they’ve reported back to.

There’s nothing to see here.

If there was any problem with the way this was being run we’d end up with an absent PM and world leading death rate.

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, chrisp65 said:

Oh, they’re just observing, then reporting back in a completely neutral factual way and then not influencing the people they’ve reported back to.

There’s nothing to see here.

If there was any problem with the way this was being run we’d end up with an absent PM and world leading death rate.

 

 

And criticising this approach makes you a paranoid leftie, and the media are evil and fake for even saying that Dom is on the committee! 

Over 20,000 death total today btw. 814 new, just in hospitals.

But look over there!!

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, Awol said:

Watching people losing their s**t because the PM’s chief advisor actually attends meetings about what’s going on is hilarious. 
 

 

The issue is that a month ago, the Times reported this in the pic below.  

So then it because questionable whether he was there to listen or there to push the governments agenda, which seems to be pretty evil.

Let's not forget that Johnson also gave a speech in February about how Britain could profit and be in a strong position if our economy didn't close like other countries. 

I think its perfectly fair to question this. There are too many signals that indicate this government have allowed God knows how many unnecessary deaths with their decisions and actions. They should be rightly questioned and investigated.

Edited April 25, 2020 by DCJonah

[StefanAVFC]

 And from the original (FAKE!) Guardian article:

Quote

while the chief medical officers and chief scientific advisers of the devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have been allowed to listen in on Sage meetings, they have been doing so as observers. Unlike Cummings and Warner, they were not allowed to ask questions, having to instead submit them in writing in advance.

Actual scientists weren't allowed to ask questions, but Dom was? Come on.

[DCJonah]

3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

 And from the original (FAKE!) Guardian article:

Actual scientists weren't allowed to ask questions, but Dom was? Come on.

And people think it was all above board and fine. 

Of course it was. 

[Awol]

 

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

The issue is that a month ago, the Times reported this in the pic below.  

So then it because questionable whether he was there to listen or there to push the governments agenda, which seems to be pretty evil.

Let's not forget that Johnson also gave a speech in February about how Britain could profit and be in a strong position if our economy didn't close like other countries. 

I think its perfectly fair to question this. There are too many signals that indicate this government have allowed God knows how many unnecessary deaths with their decisions and actions. They should be rightly questioned and investigated.

I don’t think anyone is saying they shouldn’t be questioned, just having a disagreement about whether the minutes of SAGE should be made public now (I’d say no); whether the PM’s advisor should be able to follow the scientific debate (yes, of course); whether the government were too slow to react (unarguably yes) and whether the PM should’ve been chairing COBRA meetings on the spread of the pandemic in China?

Based on what we know now you’d say yes, based on what we knew then and the official scientific advice? More debatable, imo. 

Problem is that demands a degree of nuanced discussion, so when “Leave man bad” is the answer to every question it’s hard to get at the actual issues. 

[Villarocker]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Nah. There were many on this forum who said a few years back “ if our team isn’t better coached and managed, if people don’t perform better, we’ll get relagated” and then we got relegated. No offence but I don’t want Kev from Erdington on the board of Aston Villa.

My post wasn't to support that Cummings was at any said meetings, it was to point out that it should come as no surprise. I just wanted to make that clear. 

I have always disliked the Tories and never voted for them. The last election vote I gave was to Blair before he decided to join an illegal invasion of Iraq. I haven't been able to vote since as I cannot vote for any of them as they all seem corrupt and to follow whatever path is set out for them. 

However, it'll be interesting to see what Starmer offers as an opposition leader.