VILLAMARV Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 2 hours ago, markavfc40 said: I don't know how the hell Kier Starmer comes out this judged as less trust worthy than Johnson. Because it's a load of rubbish masquerading as 'science' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: No, I don't agree with this. Surely the aim of a scientific advisory body is to decide on scientific advice, rather than trimming that advice to please politicians. Politicians can decide what to do or not to do with the advice they are given, but if they are going to go around saying they were 'guided by the science', then it is obviously a concern if scientists only felt able to give the politicians the advice they wanted to hear. I loved the fact they released a statement basically saying he wasn’t ‘on’ the committee. Just present, answering questions and offering suggestions. Yeah, no **** worries a bunch of vote leave freaks are on that committee. Cummings? He’s the guy that employed a known eugenics enthusiast? Cummings? Johnson’s top adviser when Johnson said we’d just take it on the chin? Dangerous nasty people. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 2 hours ago, markavfc40 said: I have come to the conclusion that is doesn't really matter what the Tories do half the public and three quarters of the media will turn a blind eye or simply spout whatever line the government puts out as an excuse. The same is happening in USA under Trump just on an even more ridiculous and dangerous level. I thought that with Trump but surely unless the nation are complete idiots how does he get away with saying something so ridiculous and dangerous as injecting ourselves with disinfectant could be the cure for coronavirus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: No, I don't agree with this. Surely the aim of a scientific advisory body is to decide on scientific advice, rather than trimming that advice to please politicians. Politicians can decide what to do or not to do with the advice they are given, but if they are going to go around saying they were 'guided by the science', then it is obviously a concern if scientists only felt able to give the politicians the advice they wanted to hear. Trimming advice? Where is the evidence that he was doing anything other than observing? Even if he was asking questions of the scientists I see no harm in that whatsoever, in fact it seems sensible and reasonable given his role. Cummings is a pantomime villain for the progressive left and his presence is like a thorn in their foot, a reminder of their serial political failure - hence the whining about his Brexit connections. It’s why even the mention of his name triggers so many people, and why I find it so amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 Yes I suspect if it was A.N. Other sitting in the meetings then nobody would bat an eyelid really. Cummings is very divisive though I can see why on the face of things people aren't keen on the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 35 minutes ago, Villarocker said: I am not too sure why people are questioning why Dominic Cummings would be sat in on the SAGE meetings. I mean, last March, in his online blog, he questioned the work that was being undertaken in these testing labs and warned of a potential pandemic if those labs are not vetted more for safety and security. A year later and his country is in the middle of a pandemic. If I was Bojo and my main advisor was that clued up on potential viral threats I would want him sat in on those meetings too. A blog post where it was 90% just quoting an article from a month earlier talking about how human error leading to potential exposure to pathogens actually occurs frequently at high security labs, and its effectively a ticking timebomb that isn't taken seriously enough by those in power? His words are just a conclusion summarising the article and then saying that the government doesn't care about the potential issue like it should. He's not exactly unique in saying that, and you could say the same about government on a wide range of potential issues, its basically a standard blanket statement. Of course given his concerns and all his supposed clued up knowledge on viral threats, you would have thought he'd have been advising Boris to take steps earlier when all this first started surfacing in China before Christmas, and not waiting until a few weeks ago to take it seriously... Anyway, we really need to stop treating Cummings as this supposed polymath who's secretly running the whole show. He's smart, but not that smart. His actual genius is his blog; its often just a summary of the stuff he has read, and tbf he does read a lot of scientific papers, journals etc gaining superficial knowledge of a wide range of subjects (and obviously you need to be smart to some extent to do that). But then (whether its his intention or not), his blog and other writings are basically used to promote him as an expert, almost a guru type figure across all areas. That he's not is clearly the big danger with the whole SAGE meeting issue; if he's actually taking part and trying to push his own ideas on the science then clearly he shouldn't be involved, although you would think the people with the actual knowledge would just tell him to **** off anyway. If he's there just to listen then i guess its not a massive issue, ultimately i assume SAGE would just prepare a report anyway to give to the government, so he's just getting the outcome of the meeting firsthand and then reporting back rather than waiting for it to be written up. Time is critical in these situations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 I know there have been quite a few peeps saying roads seem to have returned to something akin to normal volumes of usage. Well I’ve just driven up and down part of the M6 and it was dead, absolutely not even close to normal volumes of traffic, it was actually quite unnervingly quiet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 25, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 25, 2020 2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: Any other leader would be 20 points ahead in the polls That’s feeble. Leader for, what, 3 weeks, in a national emergency, when no “ how would you vote if there was a general election tomorrow” polls have taken place. Most people will be barely aware of who Starmer is at this point. Further, every day the government is on the telly doing propaganda. Your comparison is just so far awry as to look daft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) Regardless of whether or not it's appropriate for him to be there, or whether it's 'on' or 'in' SAGE, the government could end all of this with transparency; minutes and attendees. Nope, they just attack the press. It's shameless and Trumpian. Is it really responsible governing? Especially in the midst of this crisis. They have a history of refusing to release info; Acuri drama, Russian report, so it isn't outlandish to think there's something not right here. Especially with the refusal to publish any of the minutes. Edited April 25, 2020 by StefanAVFC 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 25, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted April 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Regardless of whether or not it's appropriate for him to be there, or whether it's 'on' or 'in' SAGE, the government could end all of this with transparency; minutes and attendees. Spot on - if Cummings is just sitting quietly listening to scientists, then the easiest way to prove that is to publish the minutes. No transparency means no trust. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted April 25, 2020 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2020 21 minutes ago, Awol said: Trimming advice? Where is the evidence that he was doing anything other than observing? Even if he was asking questions of the scientists I see no harm in that whatsoever, in fact it seems sensible and reasonable given his role. Cummings is a pantomime villain for the progressive left and his presence is like a thorn in their foot, a reminder of their serial political failure - hence the whining about his Brexit connections. It’s why even the mention of his name triggers so many people, and why I find it so amusing. I don’t agree with this. It seems unreasonable to me. It also seems to be in line with what Johnson does and is doing. Part of a serial pattern. It’s like Alisdair Campbell was for Blair, but worse. Johnson is quite clearly seeking to have a very small number of people, him, chosen advisors, one or two cabinet ministers decide what they will do. To manipulate media coverage, to avoid scrutiny, to sideline the cabinet, to dismantle or cow the civil service and advisory bodies. Scientific committees should be populated and run by scientific experts. They can be directed to address whatever the government wishes, but they should be told what to look at, then left alone to do that, then report their conclusions. They should not have the PM’s personal spad watching over them at their meetings or worse still directing discussions or questions or opining on what he thinks or what he thinks the PM thinks.it is highly apparent that they want to dismantle the civil service structures and so on, it’s on the record. To an extent, that’s legitimate. However now is not the time to try to bypass or rebuild that structure. Do it when it’s calm and quiet, and when it can be scrutinised and Parliament as a whole can oversee the process. That’s how our system is supposed to run. These words removed are serial blunderers ignoring the system that is there to prevent the mistakes and errors and failings. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 25, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Villarocker said: I am not too sure why people are questioning why Dominic Cummings would be sat in on the SAGE meetings. I mean, last March, in his online blog, he questioned the work that was being undertaken in these testing labs and warned of a potential pandemic if those labs are not vetted more for safety and security. A year later and his country is in the middle of a pandemic. If I was Bojo and my main advisor was that clued up on potential viral threats I would want him sat in on those meetings too. Nah. There were many on this forum who said a few years back “ if our team isn’t better coached and managed, if people don’t perform better, we’ll get relagated” and then we got relegated. No offence but I don’t want Kev from Erdington on the board of Aston Villa. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 James OB (I know many don't like him) makes a good point here. It's the rank hypocrisy, deflection, undermining of the press and the total opaqueness that this government makes its modus operandi that really boils my piss. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: Spot on - if Cummings is just sitting quietly listening to scientists, then the easiest way to prove that is to publish the minutes. No transparency means no trust. The reason they don’t publish minutes or the full membership is precisely to remove pressure from the contributors. If an individual scientist thought they’d be named and their advice published publicly it may limit their desire to speak freely, especially around sensitive issues - of which this crisis covers many. To use a fashionable term, the current format provides a ‘safe space’ for full and frank discussion. Too often people confuse the right to know with a need to know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 34 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: Yes I suspect if it was A.N. Other sitting in the meetings then nobody would bat an eyelid really. On the other hand, some (or a lot) of the same people who may take issue with Cummings's involvement in the SAGE meetings may have also had a similar discomfort had Alastair Campbell or Nick Timothy been participating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: James OB (I know many don't like him) makes a good point here. It's the rank hypocrisy, deflection, undermining of the press and the total opaqueness that this government makes its modus operandi that really boils my piss. James O’Brien has never consciously made a good point in his life and this is no exception. It is normal for PM’s only to chair COBRA meetings when it involves many departments and/or major strategic decisions need to be made. We have Cabinet government with Ministers responsible for running their departments. It’s not a Presidential model. O’Brien probably knows that but it suits his agenda to pretend otherwise - another one for whom Cummings is the personification of evil. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 25, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Awol said: The reason they don’t publish minutes or the full membership is precisely to remove pressure from the contributors. If an individual scientist thought they’d be named and their advice published publicly it may limit their desire to speak freely, especially around sensitive issues - of which this crisis covers many. To use a fashionable term, the current format provides a ‘safe space’ for full and frank discussion. Too often people confuse the right to know with a need to know. Yeah I think this issue is now of public interest, quite possibly the most public interest there has ever been. Also, a rather senior tory disagrees with you. Edited April 25, 2020 by Jareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 minute ago, snowychap said: On the other hand, some (or a lot) of the same people who may take issue with Cummings's involvement in the SAGE meetings may have also had a similar discomfort had Alastair Campbell or Nick Timothy been participating. Alistair Campbell used to chair the Joint Intelligence Committee!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 37 minutes ago, andym said: Anyway, we really need to stop treating Cummings as this supposed polymath who's secretly running the whole show. It would be nice if he were the first person to act on this recommendation. You are right he isn't a polymath who's secretly running the whole show - he's someone who is openly, yet opaquely, trying to have as major an influence over government and public policy as possible without being in the least bit accountable for that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Awol said: Alistair Campbell used to chair the Joint Intelligence Committee!! Thanks for backing up my point - or are you suggesting that I and others like me were not incredibly critical of Campbell's input in to the Labour government and UK policy? Edited April 25, 2020 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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