New Manager should be.....?

[M_Afro]

10 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

It might be the last game of the season. 

It’s all going a bit Duckworth Lewis! We need to stay ahead of the run rate before the storm! Getting out of the bottom 3 is critical now not the end of the season.

[Demitri_C]

53 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

No my point was I don't see how being relegated with Big Sam would be worse than being relegated u see Dean as there are some posters who have said they would rather be relegated with Dean than stop up with Sam which to me is absolute rubbish.

Sorry my last paragraph was worded poorly. Was meant to "makes no sense to me either" i was agreeing with you

[Villan_of_oz]

15 hours ago, zab6359 said:

Should DS go, which I doubt anyway but we are not a big pull for a top manager so how about a manager who has learnt the ropes been sacked and come back from it and done well and is maybe ready for a bigger job? 

Someone like Bilić?

Why would Bilic leave a club that's getting promoted for one that's getting relegated??

[jacketspuds]

At this stage I would honestly look at Allardyce. An experienced PL manager that wouldn't sugar coat performances from the players. Could sort the defence out and actually have a few different game plans.

It would absolutely be a difficult one to accept, but I feel that it would give us a better chance of staying up. I'm not sure I'd want us to keep Smith in charge if we got relegated anyway, especially when we would lose Grealish, McGinn and Mings.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, jacketspuds said:

At this stage I would honestly look at Allardyce. An experienced PL manager that wouldn't sugar coat performances from the players. Could sort the defence out and actually have a few different game plans.

It would absolutely be a difficult one to accept, but I feel that it would give us a better chance of staying up. I'm not sure I'd want us to keep Smith in charge if we got relegated anyway, especially when we would lose Grealish, McGinn and Mings.

Dean Smith has to show an appreciation of being hard to beat, to have any future.

[weedman]

19 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

Yeah, both of these points seem to be glossed over.

This summer, we'll likely have to replace almost the entire team again. A combination of offers coming in and players not wanting to play in the Championship. Our current squad isn't massive, so I don't think 12 signings this summer is going to be far too wrong when you consider outgoings we'll have.

Criticising Bruce for loaning players is a bit weird. That's how the Championship works. With FFP, there's not exactly a lot you can do when the previous manager has already thrown a hundred million up the wall.

There is clearly a difference between having 15 players leave on a free transfer because they're all way past their prime and needing to spend £120m replacing them and selling maybe 6 players for £100-150m which we can reinvest in the team. 

That's the reason people don't want a dinosaur. No-one denies that the players brought in generally do well, it's the lack of foresight that's the issue. It's completely unsustainable to have to completely rebuild every couple of years while bringing in zero transfer money 

[TRO]

22 hours ago, weedman said:

There is clearly a difference between having 15 players leave on a free transfer because they're all way past their prime and needing to spend £120m replacing them and selling maybe 6 players for £100-150m which we can reinvest in the team. 

That's the reason people don't want a dinosaur. No-one denies that the players brought in generally do well, it's the lack of foresight that's the issue. It's completely unsustainable to have to completely rebuild every couple of years while bringing in zero transfer money 

Foresight? ...thats a bit rich.....if you care to look at the 3 teams that come up there is a distinct contrast in playing styles....one clearly had foresight to know what is required in this league.....thats the foresight, i would be focused on.

I guess Allardyce is classed as a Dinosaur and yet in reality he was one of the british managers who was a pioneer of the technical elements of the game and considering our last leader was classed as a Dinosaur, he is currenty trumping our progressive offering in the league.

[Demitri_C]

If and it’s a big if the season gets voided I think they will give him some games next season. If we’re perform as badly as we have within first five games or so then he should get the axe

[Mantis]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

If and it’s a big if the season gets voided I think they will give him some games next season. If we’re perform as badly as we have within first five games or so then he should get the axe

I really hope not. Because we're going to fall back into the same pattern of shit sooner or later if Smith stays.

[weedman]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Foresight? ...thats a bit rich.....if you care to look at the 3 teams that come up there is a distinct contrast in playing styles....one clearly had foresight to know what is required in this league.....thats the foresight, i would be focused on.

I guess Allardyce is classed as a Dinosaur and yet in reality he was one of the british managers who was a pioneer of the technical elements of the game and considering our last leader was classed as a Dinosaur, he is currenty trumping our progressive offering in the league.

I think you mistook my point, by foresight I meant planning for the medium to long term, rather than short.

Say we get a Steve Bruce type in again, I'd have little doubt that we'd see an improvement in the results, he'd bring in a certain type of player to solidify us (experienced players) and get good results in the short term. However 2 years down the line those experienced players are old has beens, so we have to release them and bring in more experienced players to continue playing the same way. It's an endless cycle that costs an absolute fortune while bringing in extremely little, therefore completely unsustainable in the medium to long term. 

This is literally what we have done since Randy first bought the club, where has it got us? A few good years finishing 6th followed by a decade of abject misery and embarrassment. 

A dinosaur isn't someone that "plays defensive football" it's someone that comes in, brings a short term boost before bailing and/or getting sacked just as the bust comes. That's the sort of manager we don't want. I would rather go down with Dean Smith than see Villa appoint another "dinosaur", even if it kept us up this year 

[guyavfc]

Going on the 'if' scenario where we stay up: There’s a lot of sentiment with Smith and I was apart of that but I think too much has happened now. We see our vulnerabilities and every other team knows them too, I think we'd have to change and if we didn't we are not learning from mistakes. As far as i'm aware we have complied with FFP this season which gives us fresh money to spend. It will be very interesting because I feel our owners mean business and if they do we should be going for a high-calibre manager.

Edited March 14, 2020 by guyavfc

[TRO]

23 hours ago, weedman said:

I think you mistook my point, by foresight I meant planning for the medium to long term, rather than short.

Say we get a Steve Bruce type in again, I'd have little doubt that we'd see an improvement in the results, he'd bring in a certain type of player to solidify us (experienced players) and get good results in the short term. However 2 years down the line those experienced players are old has beens, so we have to release them and bring in more experienced players to continue playing the same way. It's an endless cycle that costs an absolute fortune while bringing in extremely little, therefore completely unsustainable in the medium to long term. 

This is literally what we have done since Randy first bought the club, where has it got us? A few good years finishing 6th followed by a decade of abject misery and embarrassment. 

A dinosaur isn't someone that "plays defensive football" it's someone that comes in, brings a short term boost before bailing and/or getting sacked just as the bust comes. That's the sort of manager we don't want. I would rather go down with Dean Smith than see Villa appoint another "dinosaur", even if it kept us up this year 

Yeah, i get that.....but planning is a dubious thing in football and it depends on what context, in as much as, if you can't get the here and now right...the medium to long term becomes more tangible and feasible.

as an example......Ron Saunders had a clear view of what he wanted and he set about creating it. What he did was kept the same style all the way through, but incrementally changed the quality to execute it.....e.g the engine was changed from frank carradus, to Des Bremner....his template was clear from day one, its just the quality he improved upon, but the biggest thing for me was the players got noticably better on a timely basis.....He bought players for modest sums to fit a mantra he had of 110% work rate and the spectacle gradually improved on the base/platform of that 110% work rate.

Our problem now is we want to play football too quickly.....but The opposition are aware and won't let us, in the championship, its easy to ignore and carry on in our own sweet way, in the prem the players are far more combative and athletic and get after you and stop you playing, subsequently our offensive game has been nullified......in contrast, we do not do the same to them, for a variety of reasons and the consequence is where we are.

Sheff Utd have gone about their job a few seasons ago.....similar to sir Ron and employed a high intensity, combative team based of high industry and work rate and added the spectacle later. 

I think our issue is more to do with getting the original philosophy right, Dean for me, is just partially right, but has failed to add the crucial ingredient of being hard to beat, when that approach requires it....that also means buying the players to play that way.

i think if you start off wrong, the planning for improvement, becomes so difficult to achieve.....progress has to be incremental.

sadly, i can only see us constantly turning players over and constantly spending huge sums, so I am not sure how the long term can ever come to fruition.

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by TRO

[MaVilla]

We need Diego Simeone as manager with Beckham as assistant manager.

I have no doubt they would get the team kicking.

[danceoftheshamen]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Yeah, i get that.....but planning is a dubious thing in football and it depends on what context, in as much as, if you can't get the here and now right...the medium to long term becomes more tangible and feasible.

as an example......Ron Saunders had a clear view of what he wanted and he set about creating it. What he did was kept the same style all the way through, but incrementally changed the quality to execute it.....e.g the engine was changed from frank carradus, to Des Bremner....his template was clear from day one, its just the quality he improved upon, but the biggest thing for me was the players got noticably better on a timely basis.....He bought players for modest sums to fit a mantra he had of 110% work rate and the spectacle gradually improved on the base/platform of that 110% work rate.

Our problem now is we want to play football too quickly.....but The opposition are aware and won't let us, in the championship, its easy to ignore and carry on in our own sweet way, in the prem the players are far more combative and athletic and get after you and stop you playing, subsequently our offensive game has been nullified......in contrast, we do not do the same to them, for a variety of reasons and the consequence is where we are.

Sheff Utd have gone about their job a few seasons ago.....similar to sir Ron and employed a high intensity, combative team based of high industry and work rate and added the spectacle later. 

I think our issue is more to do with getting the original philosophy right, Dean for me, is just partially right, but has failed to add the crucial ingredient of being hard to beat, when that approach requires it....that also means buying the players to play that way.

i think if you start off wrong, the planning for improvement, becomes so difficult to achieve.....progress has to be incremental.

sadly, i can only see us constantly turning players over and constantly spending huge sums, so I am not sure how the long term can ever come to fruition.

 

For me this is a top post!

The only thing i would add is that things have been affected slightly with injuries (although slightly as we all know is a massive thing in the Premier League and often the difference between winning & losing ).

All teams get several injuries over the course of a season of course (Aside from Wolves this season by all accounts & as it happens that Saunders title winning team you mention in your post in 1980/81) but rarely does a newly promoted team, in the midst of attempting to hastily assemble a squad on a big scale capable of staying up, suffer such catastrophic injuries to key players (McGinn, Heaton (+Steer) & to a lesser extent Wesley although with the multiple injuries to his replacement Davis this was equally as devastating). Add to this having all of it's other key players out for lengthy spells too (Grealish, Mings). The final issue here was of course the timing of it all. No strikers when we played what was our run of games against teams we should have been picking up points from.

This has definitely cost us half a dozen places in the table in my opinion and we lost another couple through VAR.

Your post though stands TRO and is exactly what is wrong with Smiths way of doing things. Add that Saunders philosophy first & then the glitter/flair on top. We appear to have done it backwards and it was always too fragile a set up to survive any major injury issues. Had we had that grit & solid base in place first (Akin to what Sheff UTD have done) we may well now be in a much better place.

I just hope we somehow come out of this with another chance to right it.... I am not certain Dean is the man to do that however. We need a cross between Allardyce & Smith.

[danceoftheshamen]

28 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

We need Diego Simeone as manager with Beckham as assistant manager.

I have no doubt they would get the team kicking.

Would love Simeone

[sne]

1 hour ago, danceoftheshamen said:

Would love Simeone

Annual salary of €43.6m at Atletico Madrid, highest paid manager in the world. 

Just gotta hope he loves canals and Balti pies and we just might manage to lure him here

[MaVilla]

10 minutes ago, sne said:

Annual salary of €43.6m at Atletico Madrid, highest paid manager in the world. 

Just gotta hope he loves canals and Balti pies and we just might manage to lure him here

Roughly 1m euros a week????

Blimey.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, danceoftheshamen said:

For me this is a top post!

The only thing i would add is that things have been affected slightly with injuries (although slightly as we all know is a massive thing in the Premier League and often the difference between winning & losing ).

All teams get several injuries over the course of a season of course (Aside from Wolves this season by all accounts & as it happens that Saunders title winning team you mention in your post in 1980/81) but rarely does a newly promoted team, in the midst of attempting to hastily assemble a squad on a big scale capable of staying up, suffer such catastrophic injuries to key players (McGinn, Heaton (+Steer) & to a lesser extent Wesley although with the multiple injuries to his replacement Davis this was equally as devastating). Add to this having all of it's other key players out for lengthy spells too (Grealish, Mings). The final issue here was of course the timing of it all. No strikers when we played what was our run of games against teams we should have been picking up points from.

This has definitely cost us half a dozen places in the table in my opinion and we lost another couple through VAR.

Your post though stands TRO and is exactly what is wrong with Smiths way of doing things. Add that Saunders philosophy first & then the glitter/flair on top. We appear to have done it backwards and it was always too fragile a set up to survive any major injury issues. Had we had that grit & solid base in place first (Akin to what Sheff UTD have done) we may well now be in a much better place.

I just hope we somehow come out of this with another chance to right it.... I am not certain Dean is the man to do that however. We need a cross between Allardyce & Smith.

Precisely

Edited March 15, 2020 by TRO

[TRO]

5 hours ago, danceoftheshamen said:

Would love Simeone

The best manager in the world in relation to the ability to defend as a team.

I don't think we need that....its like one extreme to the other.

we want a manager who's modus operandi is to know when to switch to either mode in a game.....football, like boxing, requires an understanding of when to attack and when to defend with the objective to win or ensure the opponent does not.

we just set out to win, by attacking with gay abandon, very noble some might say, but its naive and has no respect for the opposition....before we know it, we go from attack to retreat quicker than an aggressive fart turns to shite.

Unless some action of some sort is achieved, we will go nowhere, just treading (mediocre) water.

Edited March 15, 2020 by TRO

[TRO]

On 14/03/2020 at 12:48, weedman said:

I think you mistook my point, by foresight I meant planning for the medium to long term, rather than short.

Say we get a Steve Bruce type in again, I'd have little doubt that we'd see an improvement in the results, he'd bring in a certain type of player to solidify us (experienced players) and get good results in the short term. However 2 years down the line those experienced players are old has beens, so we have to release them and bring in more experienced players to continue playing the same way. It's an endless cycle that costs an absolute fortune while bringing in extremely little, therefore completely unsustainable in the medium to long term. 

This is literally what we have done since Randy first bought the club, where has it got us? A few good years finishing 6th followed by a decade of abject misery and embarrassment. 

A dinosaur isn't someone that "plays defensive football" it's someone that comes in, brings a short term boost before bailing and/or getting sacked just as the bust comes. That's the sort of manager we don't want. I would rather go down with Dean Smith than see Villa appoint another "dinosaur", even if it kept us up this year 

I don't want a Steve Bruce type, I want a balanced manager, who appreciates both offensive and defensive football and knows when and where to focus ,to secure results.

Martin O'Neill put simply, played smash and grab football away from home where he picked up most of his points......at Home where there was more onus on the home team securing the initiative, we struggled in relative terms, IIRC we just about got in the double figures for wins.....the spectacle was questionable too......However 6-6-6 seems difficult to condemn, when viewing what we have done since.

in some cases a short term view has to be maintained, in order to get to the oasis of the second phase/ third phase.....this notion, that a long term plan can be achieved, without due focus to he here and now, is a false narrative.

wolves would never have got the players in they have now, without the earlier versions of caveleiro, etc...it has to be incrementally grown....the long term view, just has to be a better quality of the shorterm view......good players only want to play with good players....thats why Jack will go in the same pursuit.

If we keep signing players, we fail to get anything out of we will continue the cycle of last summer and run the risk of creating disinterested owners.....we have to have some players, who improve significantly in order for us to add orderly numbers....it is fair to say, 11 new players are difficult to gel at once, but we have failed to see any improvement from any of them, to move on to the next stage, i.e this summer, with less stress.