The Hung Like a Donkey General Election December 2019 Thread

[snowychap]

 

Fridge from the 'Read This' page:

Quote

Can any Brexiteer inclined to support this Treaty honestly say that it amounts to a proper Brexit? A Clean-Break Brexit remains the best deal for Britain.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by snowychap

[bannedfromHandV]

45 minutes ago, avfcDJ said:

He certainly has the media against him, and that's a hard thing to overcome. Ed Miliband had the same issues, as will the next Labour leader, and the one after that too. 

It's almost as if there's a consistent theme there.........

[Dodgyknees]

13 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It's almost as if there's a consistent theme there.........

Yep, even the current media favourite, Jess Philips, would undergo the same undoing by the press. Yet Boris Johnson can say and do as he pleases.

[bobzy]

Still yet to hear any reason why people don’t want Corbyn as PM other than he’s Jeremy Corbyn. 
 

Media assassination has been a complete success. 

[veloman]

I was discussing this business with the owner of our local Chinese takeaway. I asked " When was the last time you had a election" and he said " Just after bleakfast". I didn't get it.

[bickster]

I don't get the NF Corp decision.

So he's not going to stand in the seats they won last time? they might not win them this time anyway

He's going to stand in the others and split the Tory Vote against Labour (as we know a HIGH % the ex-Labour Leave voters voted Tory last Time)

So he's going to help the Tory's keep their seats (except we know they lose quite a few existing ones)

And he's going to help Labour keep theirs by splitting the Tory vote?

It seems to me he's just guaranteed a hung parliament but he can't control the balance of power

[bickster]

14 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Still yet to hear any reason why people don’t want Corbyn as PM other than he’s Jeremy Corbyn. 
 

Media assassination has been a complete success. 

Maybe you should read the Labour Topic then, plenty of us have given good reason why

[ml1dch]

52 minutes ago, bickster said:

He's going to stand in the others and split the Tory Vote against Labour (as we know a HIGH % the ex-Labour Leave voters voted Tory last Time)

So he's going to help the Tory's keep their seats (except we know they lose quite a few existing ones)

And he's going to help Labour keep theirs by splitting the Tory vote?

Maybe a phased withdrawal.  Couple more days and he stands the rest down. Today just the first step down his ladder.

Even if he doesn't, this is still good news for the Conservatives. The "helping Labour" bit he was doing anyway. They aren't benefiting any more than they were already by today's news.

The "helping the Tories" bit is a pretty big help. If they'd done it in Peterborough and Brecon then the Conservatives would probably have won both. And every Winchester or St Albans that they narrowly retain is one fewer Halifax or Darlington that they need to take.

[blandy]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

I don't get the NF Corp decision.

Money. Personal "advancement".

Costs to compete in 300 odd seats avoided for NF Corp. They'd win none of them, either. Reward no doubt in my mind via some sort of gong if the tories get back in.

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, blandy said:

Money. Personal "advancement".

Costs to compete in 300 odd seats avoided for NF Corp. They'd win none of them, either. Reward no doubt in my mind via some sort of gong if the tories get back in.

Obviously I get that bit, I just don't get how its a tactic that will actually do anything

[Chindie]

Farage has been trying to steer the Tories from the outside for years - that was one of his goals with UKIP under his influence and it's the same with his current vanity project. He'll be quite happy with his success in that regard.

Stepping down in many seats is a win. They've gotten a shitload of money for nothing with applications for candidacy etc no doubt, they save on canvassing costs, they're pretty much getting what they want through the Tories anyway, stepping down strengthens that hand, and there's every chance that personally Farage will be getting his ego tickled somewhere down the line - personal gong, ceremonial role, ambassadorship, peerage...

[bobzy]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

Maybe you should read the Labour Topic then, plenty of us have given good reason why

I read it fleetingly, I’m still not sure. I basically read about him being weak/pathetic and that’s it - and it’s fair, but considering how utterly terrible the current government and PM are... that’s his crime?

and it’s trotted out a lot. It’s just about his person. Not his policies or actions - just him being him. Oh, and also an anti-Semite, apparently. 

[markavfc40]

3 hours ago, bickster said:

Maybe you should read the Labour Topic then, plenty of us have given good reason why

I get that there are plenty of good reasons as to why people don't particularly want Corbyn as PM. 

The facts are though that the only person with any chance of being PM other than Johnson in this election is Corbyn. If you are a Labour voter, or ex labour voter since Corbyn became leader, then surely as much as you don't want Corbyn you'd have to accept he is a better option than a Johnson led Tory government.

As a Labour voter I accept that Corbyn isn't an ideal leader of the party I support and there are also a number in the shadow cabinet I don't have a lot of time for. We are where we are though and I fear that if those of us who are at heart Labour but anti Corbyn go around with an anti Corbyn message in terms of amongst work colleagues, family, friends, on social media then we are potentially helping to facilitate a big Tory majority.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by markavfc40

[blandy]

40 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

If you are a Labour voter, or ex labour voter since Corbyn became leader. then surely as much as you don't want Corbyn you'd have to accept he is a better option than a Johnson led Tory government.

There's 2 strands to replying to that, Mark.

Firstly, it depend where you live. Where I live is a 10000 tory majority. The tactical voting sites tell me that because Labour came 2nd last time, vote for them. Yet they were not much ahead of the LDs. With LDs picking up a lot due to opposing Brexit, I'd probably be better off voting for them than Labour, whose first bit of their Brexit policy says "negotiate a new deal to Leave with. Then there are various other parts to it, including whether or not they decide to oppose their own negotiated deal, then hold a referendum. I can't see any Leave deal being better than remain, so Labour disqualify themselves for me, and for many more people. Ultimately though this seat will stay Tory, I imagine. So whatever I think or vote matters not a jot.

The second strand is that as much as I loathe the tories, and I really do, I'm also repelled by Corbyn and his clique - their judgement, competence, double standards, hypocrisy, record with the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah and various other profoundly dumb (being charitable) associations. They are IMO seriously unfit to be the Cabinet and PM - as bad, every bit as bad, though in different ways, to the tories "top team". Of course there are plenty (though a diminishing number of Labour MPs who I admire and respect and would vote for in a flash were they standing in my seat - lefter ones and more centrist ones - but they're not. And Labour's policies, overall, are better than the tories in some massive areas. They've also got some daft ones, true. But ultimately they need to get rid of the numpties at the top and then I can go back to voting for them, my vote still making not the slightest difference. I want a Labour that isn't incompetent. While it is, I see no way they are a viable alternative to the baby eaters.

[Sid4ever]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

There's 2 strands to replying to that, Mark.

Firstly, it depend where you live. Where I live is a 10000 tory majority. The tactical voting sites tell me that because Labour came 2nd last time, vote for them. Yet they were not much ahead of the LDs. 

Taken me a while, but I am now thinking BW is your MP as he is mine (one across crossword clue from weeks ago).  Same quandary for me, should the Lib Dem candidate not stand down

[Chindie]

Corbyn is too left to accept. That's his biggest problem.

He isn't a good leader. His politics isn't savvy enough, without much grey, still stuck in the student union - hence his willingness to stand next to unsavoury figures because they share a fundamental cause. He's not very good with the media, and his PR nous doesn't exist. He's not the strong personality that can drag people behind a cause. He's struggled to thread the needle between pulling Labour towards his outlook and not compromising that stance. And he's, like the entire political establishment, buggered up dealing with Brexit.

But his biggest problem is he's too left. It's let everyone take potshots from the get go. It's given a carte blanche to a great deal of people to simply write him off. And that, coupled to a media that hates him, the right of his party prepared to sabotage the party's success to get rid of him, and his own cock ups, has us in this position.

I don't think a great deal of him, I think he's a nice enough bloke and has some idea of how to speak for and to normal people, but disagree with him on some things and don't think he's an ideal candidate to be PM. But I don't think he's actively evil like the Tories. I'm also not going to pretend he's Satan either though.

[markavfc40]

25 minutes ago, blandy said:

There's 2 strands to replying to that, Mark.

Firstly, it depend where you live. Where I live is a 10000 tory majority. The tactical voting sites tell me that because Labour came 2nd last time, vote for them. Yet they were not much ahead of the LDs. With LDs picking up a lot due to opposing Brexit, I'd probably be better off voting for them than Labour, whose first bit of their Brexit policy says "negotiate a new deal to Leave with. Then there are various other parts to it, including whether or not they decide to oppose their own negotiated deal, then hold a referendum. I can't see any Leave deal being better than remain, so Labour disqualify themselves for me, and for many more people. Ultimately though this seat will stay Tory, I imagine. So whatever I think or vote matters not a jot.

The second strand is that as much as I loathe the tories, and I really do, I'm also repelled by Corbyn and his clique - their judgement, competence, double standards, hypocrisy, record with the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah and various other profoundly dumb (being charitable) associations. They are IMO seriously unfit to be the Cabinet and PM - as bad, every bit as bad, though in different ways, to the tories "top team". Of course there are plenty (though a diminishing number of Labour MPs who I admire and respect and would vote for in a flash were they standing in my seat - lefter ones and more centrist ones - but they're not. And Labour's policies, overall, are better than the tories in some massive areas. They've also got some daft ones, true. But ultimately they need to get rid of the numpties at the top and then I can go back to voting for them, my vote still making not the slightest difference. I want a Labour that isn't incompetent. While it is, I see no way they are a viable alternative to the baby eaters.

They are all fair points Pete and I can't really put up a good counter argument to any of them.

The bottom line is though is that we are going to end up with a Tory led Johnson government or a Corbyn led Labour one. As things stand in this election Corbyn as Labour leader is not going to change. So are people like yourselves so far anti Corbyn that they'd rather have a Johnson led Tory government? Given what you have said regarding policies I'd guess given a straight choice you'd choose a Corbyn led Labour one.

I realise that for you and many others that you voting Labour is not going to make a blind bit of difference anyway due to the constituency you live in my point really is though is that if at heart Labour supporters are giving out an anti Corbyn message amongst family/friends/work colleagues and on social media then that isn't going to help prevent a Tory government. I'd like to see a little more holding of noses for the next 4 weeks and those of us who whilst not happy with Corbyn seeing the bigger picture of a desperate need to prevent a Tory government and giving out a message that a Corbyn led Labour government is a better option than a Johnson led Tory one, if that is what you believe of course.

[Seat68]

Corbyn is that mate on Facebook that posts nothing but political posts all the time but down the pub they are completely normal. 

Johnson is that mate on Facebook that posts stuff shared from other sites that are clearly bullshit. 

[snowychap]

44 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

The bottom line is though is that we are going to end up with a Tory led Johnson government or a Corbyn led Labour one.

Though we could get minority or majority versions of each and the difference between those versions is huge, I'd say.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by snowychap

[markavfc40]

5 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Though we could get minority or majority versions of each and the difference between those versions is huge, I'd say.

 

True. I'd say there are three possible outcomes as I can't for a second see a Labour majority. The best I think the country can hope for is a Labour led coalition with SNP and Lib Dems which should keep in check some of Labours more far left policies.