The Hung Like a Donkey General Election December 2019 Thread

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Of course. So maybe they could have just offered to revoke article 50 like the Lib Dem’s are. It would have got Dems vote.

Or, they could keep to their promise of the last few years and try and negotiate a better deal.

They have been stating on the english language version of their website that they are a leave party that will honour the referendum. They have steadfastly refused to abandon this. Except of course on their election broadcast in Wales, where they claimed to be a Remain party.

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Or, they could keep to their promise of the last few years and try and negotiate a better deal.

They have been stating on the english language version of their website that they are a leave party that will honour the referendum. They have steadfastly refused to abandon this. Except of course on their election broadcast in Wales, where they claimed to be a Remain party.

 

i think they just look like prats making out they can negotiate a better deal. They should be telling the people they know the deal on the table is shit but they will let the people decide if they want to accept it or not. I think that would have gone down better with voters than this bollocks about  negotiating a better deal. People are sick of the negotiations. They want it done one way or another.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa

[chrisp65]

Just now, Vive_La_Villa said:

i think they just look like prats making out they can negotiate a better deal. They should be telling the people they know the deal on the table is shit but they will let the people decide if they want to accept it or not. I think that would have gone down better with voters than this bollocks another negotiating a better deal. People are sick of the negotiations. They want it done own way or another.

Just because a portion of the people are being wilfully dumb, the politicians shouldn’t just pander to that and pretend its as simple as Brexiteers pretend it is. If there’s a better deal, they should try and get it. Of course ‘better’ is quite abstract. I’m sure Mark Francois and Jacob Toff Mogg see nothing less than economic year zero and filling in the channel tunnel as acceptable. 

People are sick of it precisely because they’ve been lied to about how simple it was. It’s not Labour’s job to help Johnson appear to fix it.

[blandy]

41 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

We can easily imagine a world where the last three years persuaded, say, 15% of the electorate that Brexit was too hard, not worthwhile and wouldn't leave the country in a better place. That's the sort of margin that would make pursuing Brexit a politcall-damaging strategy. It's worth thinking why that hasn't happened IMO. 

Yes, exactly - and that's why I posted what I did above.

I think that realistically, with politics, and like it or not (I don't) the ONLY way a remain case can, or could have, been made would be for one of the two main parties to have made it.  In that way, in terms of voters generally being affected the media - TV particularly, but also radio and others traditional media - would have to have covered the "remain" case as an adversary to the Government's Leave "steps". What we've basically had is Labour and Tories pushing different theoretical (unicorn) Leave versions. and then the media covering (most of the time) either events in the process of leaving, arguments about which type of leave would be better/less bad, and personalities (will May survive, will Johnson chuck out whoever, will Labour change it's policy... what will the DUP do, what will the SNP do...?) No one "official" has made an attempt to argue for the UK to remain. There are approx half the population who are Remainers and neither party representing what they want. Yes, a referendum might give people hope that the decision be re-thought and changed - but an argument for another Ref is actually about the Ref, parlaimentary v Popular democracy, etc. not about remaining. Even now, Labour is saying they'll come up with some Labour flavoured deal and offer a Ref v Remain on it, but there's no case been made by them WHY people should either consider their Labour Leave, or why actually Remain is better. And that's because the leadership think one thing and the membership another. It's a party survival fudge not a genuine policy based on what "they" believe. It's a massive shame, a huge misjudgement and will lead to a shellacking at the polls and a Tory Brexit

[Vive_La_Villa]

17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Just because a portion of the people are being wilfully dumb, the politicians shouldn’t just pander to that and pretend its as simple as Brexiteers pretend it is. If there’s a better deal, they should try and get it. Of course ‘better’ is quite abstract. I’m sure Mark Francois and Jacob Toff Mogg see nothing less than economic year zero and filling in the channel tunnel as acceptable. 

People are sick of it precisely because they’ve been lied to about how simple it was. It’s not Labour’s job to help Johnson appear to fix it.

People aren’t going to vote for Labour on the basis they will get a new deal. So we’ll end up with Boris’s deal anyway. 

If Labour gave people a chance to vote on the current deal I reckon they would have got a lot more votes.  I also think people would have then voted against the deal once it was fully understood. 

I guess we’ll never know.

[blandy]

22 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

If there’s a better deal, they should try and get it.

There are theoretically any number of less bad deals, but they are all bad. Every last one of them.

It's a hard thing to get people to love sewers. But if you decide disconnect from the sewage system you end up knee deep in jobby.

[HanoiVillan]

51 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

People aren’t going to vote for Labour on the basis they will get a new deal. So we’ll end up with Boris’s deal anyway. 

If Labour gave people a chance to vote on the current deal I reckon they would have got a lot more votes.  I also think people would have then voted against the deal once it was fully understood. 

I guess we’ll never know.

Why would they get more votes by saying 'we can't negotiate anything other than a Tory deal?'

People mostly don't want another referendum, they don't particularly care what's on it. So Labour should try to negotiate a deal that is more suited to their policy priorities.

[Vive_La_Villa]

10 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Why would they get more votes by saying 'we can't negotiate anything other than a Tory deal?'

People mostly don't want another referendum, they don't particularly care what's on it. So Labour should try to negotiate a deal that is more suited to their policy priorities.

Probably because they would be being honest for once. 

Labour won’t even get a chance to negotiate a deal so it doesn’t matter anyway.

I also think people do want a referendum. What they don’t want is more negotiations. Remember I’m more in-tune with the average Brit.  You lot are far too intelligent and sophisticated to understand what we want

[chrisp65]

Register to vote

anyway, on the off chance anyone hasn’t, that’s the link to register to vote

you have until 26th Nov to register

Quote

Deadline for registering to vote in the General Election

Register by 11:59pm on 26 November to vote in the General Election on 12 December

 

[peterms]

Sounds about right.

 

[Straggler]

 

Joe wrote it and Jack Grealish liked it. I'm pretty sure this means that Villa fans now have to vote for Not Tory.

[Sam-AVFC]

You can tell he honed his opinions at the VT School of Debate! Whether you agree or not, he certainly seems to have a level of thought not seen in most footballers.

For reference, see Harry Arter posting this:

When it was pointed out it was Boris with the bus (still not sure how he mixed this one up) he ended up just deleting his whole Twitter account

Edited November 19, 2019 by Sam-AVFC

[bobzy]

50 minutes ago, Straggler said:

 

Joe wrote it and Jack Grealish liked it. I'm pretty sure this means that Villa fans now have to vote for Not Tory.

That whole "there's no money left" is the only thing people are commenting on.

 

Soundbites winning Tories vote.  Again, we're ****.

[bannedfromHandV]

18 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

i think they just look like prats making out they can negotiate a better deal. They should be telling the people they know the deal on the table is shit but they will let the people decide if they want to accept it or not. I think that would have gone down better with voters than this bollocks about  negotiating a better deal. People are sick of the negotiations. They want it done one way or another.

So forget about trying to get a better deal because it's taken too long.

That's like selling your car for £2500 under market rate just cos it's been on the market for a month longer than you'd like.

[snowychap]

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

That whole "there's no money left" is the only thing people are commenting on.

And the gold, don't forget about the gold. Aaaaaargh!

[snowychap]

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

So forget about trying to get a better deal because it's taken too long.

That's like selling your car for £2500 under market rate just cos it's been on the market for a month longer than you'd like.

I agree mate but it’s taken Tories years just to get where we are. How long would Labour need to get an improved deal and that’s even if they could.

People do not believe Labour are capable of negotiating an improved deal and they also do not want this dragging on.  
 

I’m not saying it’s sensible to accept a shit deal rather than continuing to negotiate for a better one. I’m just telling you what the average bloke down the pub (majority of voters) want.  

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, Vive_La_Villa said:

I agree mate but it’s taken Tories years just to get where we are. How long would Labour need to get an improved deal and that’s even if they could.

People do not believe Labour are capable of negotiating an improved deal and they also do not want this dragging on.  
 

I’m not saying it’s sensible to accept a shit deal rather than continuing to negotiate for a better one. I’m just telling you what the average bloke down the pub (majority of voters) want.  

Because of their own red lines. Hard to get a deal when you're self-imposing restrictions on yourself.

Labour have far looser conditions as they aren't committed to taking us out of the customs unions and aren't opposed to FoM.

[Sam-AVFC]

I'll be amazed if Labour haven't had hypothetical discussions about the framework of a potential deal with the EU negotiators.

[bobzy]

10 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I agree mate but it’s taken Tories years just to get where we are. How long would Labour need to get an improved deal and that’s even if they could.

People do not believe Labour are capable of negotiating an improved deal and they also do not want this dragging on.  

I’m not saying it’s sensible to accept a shit deal rather than continuing to negotiate for a better one. I’m just telling you what the average bloke down the pub (majority of voters) want.  

It's their mess.  They created it and have imposed their own constraints.  This isn't something that another party would need to approach in the same manner.  (Note @Sam-AVFC's point too).