The Hung Like a Donkey General Election December 2019 Thread

[tonyh29]

46 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I thought it was pretty common knowledge and accepted that traditonally voting Tory is more about me and my own, and Labour was more about society.

it's the very nature of left/right.

it depends what you want and care about I guess. If you want to pay less tax, and accept cuts to public services from that reduced tax, vote Tory. You can see why it's a shy vote. People don't want to tell people that they're selfish.

I think it's widely accepted that traditionally the vast majority of people put their family first  , to pretend otherwise is a bit delusional really  .

The problem people who come out with this sort of statement  have is they seem to think all Torys are billionaire landowners with double-barrelled names living in Mansions sending their kids to Eton whilst exploiting poor people as they do it  , the reality is most Torys are just people paying their taxes and aspiring to do better for themself and their families  , same as every Labour voter , every Lib Dem voter and every SNP voter .

My generation kinda  grew up poor ,  there is absolutely nothing selfish with having aspired to move away from that .. That countless governments have wasted money is an issue ,  and one that the last labour government we had were just as guilty of as any recent Tory government .. if people think Corbyn is going to resolve this then good luck to them , but I don't think telling anyone that votes Tory they are selfish will become part of his campaign

[Dr_Pangloss]

In principle I don't have a massive problem with people being Tories. I can slightly empathise with the desire for limited government and lower taxes, also conservative or neo-conservative economics can sometimes provide good counter arguments to impulses for wide ranging nationalisation and high taxes (e.g. Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom being an essential read regardless of what side of the compass you're on). I can also understand people identifying with the conserve in conservatism, wanting to hold onto traditions.

But I absolutely do have a problem with people supporting this conservative government, you won't find a bigger collection of mean spirited, down right nasty and competent buffoons in British political history. Labour may run this lot close but they're not as bad.

[bickster]

Just now, tonyh29 said:

I think it's widely accepted that traditionally the vast majority of people put their family first  , to pretend otherwise is a bit delusional really  .

Brexit says this is absolute bollocks

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

I think it's widely accepted that traditionally the vast majority of people put their family first  , to pretend otherwise is a bit delusional really  .

The problem people who come out with this sort of statement  have is they seem to think all Torys are billionaire landowners with double-barrelled names living in Mansions sending their kids to Eton whilst exploiting poor people as they do it  , the reality is most Torys are just people paying their taxes and aspiring to do better for themself and their families  , same as every Labour voter , every Lib Dem voter and every SNP voter .

My generation kinda  grew up poor ,  there is absolutely nothing selfish with having aspired to move away from that .. That countless governments have wasted money is an issue ,  and one that the last labour government we had were just as guilty of as any recent Tory government .. if people think Corbyn is going to resolve this then good luck to them , but I don't think telling anyone that votes Tory they are selfish will become part of his campaign

Using tax as an example.

If you're in a higher tax bracket, and you may have a tax hike under a left leaning government, you're already well enough off to support your family and that additional money may go on to help multiple other people, unrelated to your family.

I'm not naive to think it's all that simple but that's where I'm coming from.

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

 I can also understand people identifying with the conserve in conservatism, wanting to hold onto traditions.

I had a discussion about this with the Mrs at the weekend.

For me, if a 'tradition' can't be argued for, without being able to stand up on its own without the argument 'tradition' then it's bollocks.

Traditions aren't bad, but they need a reason behind them.

 

[Sam-AVFC]

29 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

My generation kinda  grew up poor ,  there is absolutely nothing selfish with having aspired to move away from that

I'm glad you've made this point. Whenever I feel hard done by it's always good to have a boomer reminding me how difficult they had it to give me some perspective.

[StefanAVFC]

Must have been really hard to get a job for life with little to no qualifications, or pay 30k for a house.

Tough times.  

Edited November 4, 2019 by StefanAVFC

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

Using tax as an example.

If you're in a higher tax bracket, and you may have a tax hike under a left leaning government, you're already well enough off to support your family and that additional money may go on to help multiple other people, unrelated to your family.

I'm not naive to think it's all that simple but that's where I'm coming from.

I can agree with that  , i don't necessarily trust government to make it that simple that taxing "me"  more will make the NHS better or remove food banks  though.

I guess , the million $ question is how much is the tax hike  ,  a few pence on income tax here and there won't hurt wealthy people, and they should happily pay it  , but as we saw with France , tax those people too high and its counter-productive as those people move their money elsewhere ( i can agree with you here about selfish people )

 

 

 

 

[ml1dch]

21 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

In principle I don't have a massive problem with people being Tories. I can slightly empathise with the desire for limited government and lower taxes, also conservative or neo-conservative economics can sometimes provide good counter arguments to impulses for wide ranging nationalisation and high taxes (e.g. Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom being an essential read regardless of what side of the compass you're on). I can also understand people identifying with the conserve in conservatism, wanting to hold onto traditions.

But I absolutely do have a problem with people supporting this conservative government, you won't find a bigger collection of mean spirited, down right nasty and competent buffoons in British political history. Labour may run this lot close but they're not as bad.

Absolutely. The principles of Conservatism are pretty sound. 

The problem is that the Conservatives were booted out of the party and those that were left have decided not to stand, and it's now a UKIP-lite bunch of lying nutcases.

 

[snowychap]

 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

My generation kinda  grew up poor

Sorry to go back over old ground from earlier in the day but this is nonsense, you are younger than me but I think we're roughly the same "generation", we come from probably the most privileged generation ever to be born in this country. Less well off before and after us.

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

That countless governments have wasted money is an issue ,  and one that the last labour government we had were just as guilty of as any recent Tory government ..

Do you actually have any evidence to back this claim up? Besides that "waste" is a very subjective term how are you judging it?

[blandy]

3 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

I thought it was pretty common knowledge and accepted that traditonally voting Tory is more about me and my own, and Labour was more about society.

it's the very nature of left/right.

it depends what you want and care about I guess. If you want to pay less tax, and accept cuts to public services from that reduced tax, vote Tory. You can see why it's a shy vote. People don't want to tell people that they're selfish.

Many people say that, but I don't think it's true really.

Left and right started out as where folk sat in the French Palace before the revolution didn't it? Those on the Right were small c conservative types in favour of the way things were and the King and so on, and those who sat on the left were all for revolution and overthrowing the monarchy n'that.

Within the UK if a poor person votes Labour because they'll provide better benefits,  is that any less or more selfish than a small businessman who votes tory because (say) business taxes will be lower under the tories?

I mean I thoroughly and utterly detest the Tory party and almost all if not everything of it stands for, and it's getting worse and worse - but I don't think that the tory voters are all selfish twunts. They're not. And they don't necessarily vote for the tories out of selfishness, some do it out of nastiness, some out of ignorance  some do it because they think they control spending better, or are more effective administrators or are stronger on defence or immigration or standing up for small business or fox murdering, or destroying the planet, or selling everything to their rich mates and hiding the proceeds in tax havens.

There. I don't think my bias showed at all there.

 

[meregreen]

I think it was Keith Waterhouse who said “I could vote Tory......but it would be for all the wrong reasons”. Pretty good way of putting it.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

Must have been really hard to get a job for life with little to no qualifications, or pay 30k for a house.

Inflation over 20%, more than 3 million unemployed, traditional industries decimated and destroyed...

Yeah, piece of cake. 

[tonyh29]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

Do you actually have any evidence to back this claim up? Besides that "waste" is a very subjective term how are you judging it?

I'm sure you've even commented previously on some of them  , but  the NHS IT system  that cost 10bn and rising  , PFI contracts , its really not that difficult  you'd find themyourself  on google in seconds on another day

 

11 minutes ago, bickster said:

Sorry to go back over old ground from earlier in the day but this is nonsense, you are younger than me but I think we're roughly the same "generation", we come from probably the most privileged generation ever to be born in this country. Less well off before and after us.

One really needs to read the sentence in its whole context  , I said we grew up kinda poor and that there is absolutely nothing selfish with having aspired to move away from that  ... it wasn't a whose generation had it worse comparison  .

I'm sure there is already a  thread about upbringings and decades where this discussion has been done before away from politics , I'm not saying anything that wasn't already said previously and viewed slightly differently

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

I thought it was pretty common knowledge and accepted that traditonally voting Tory is more about me and my own, and Labour was more about society.

it's the very nature of left/right.

it depends what you want and care about I guess. If you want to pay less tax, and accept cuts to public services from that reduced tax, vote Tory. You can see why it's a shy vote. People don't want to tell people that they're selfish.

Fair point. But I feel like I work my ass off and pay a hell of a lot of tax as it is. I don’t want to pay more.

[meregreen]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Fair point. But I feel like I work my ass off and pay a hell of a lot of tax as it is. I don’t want to pay more.

Depends how it’s used. If I pay more tax in order that the rich can pay less, I’ll agree. I will gladly pay more tax to help create a better more equitable society though. 

[Sam-AVFC]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Fair point. But I feel like I work my ass off and pay a hell of a lot of tax as it is. I don’t want to pay more.

This is a fair position, but haven't Labour recently* only championed increasing the highest band from 45% to 50%? Considering the top band is for any earnings over £150k, a lot more people than would actually be impacted by this seem to view it as having a personal impact.

I'm as selfish as the next man, but I the thought of an extra 5% of tax on earnings over £150k really doesn't scare me. Also bear in mind if you're earning £200,000 the tax free allowance only has to come up £2,500 to cover your tax loss.

*recently being in my memory of politics from say 2000 onwards

[meregreen]

High taxes are not the overriding problem in this country, it’s low basic incomes that impact people’s lives far more. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by meregreen

[Risso]

4 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

I thought it was pretty common knowledge and accepted that traditonally voting Tory is more about me and my own, and Labour was more about society.

it's the very nature of left/right.

it depends what you want and care about I guess. If you want to pay less tax, and accept cuts to public services from that reduced tax, vote Tory. You can see why it's a shy vote. People don't want to tell people that they're selfish.

I've never met anybody yet who doesn't want to pay less tax.  It's not many people, even the sort who might occasionally shout "Oh Je-re-my Corbyn" who would refuse to pay a tradesman less for "cash in hand", for example.  And trade unions members going on strike, say, teachers and London Underground drivers for example, don't give a toss how their actions affect on other people who are negatively impacted by having to take unpaid leave because they can't go to work.  Look at that nice left wing Ed Miliband as another example, more than happy to avoid having to pay the IHT bill on his late father's estate.  Schrödinger's Socialist - allegedly happy to pay more in tax, but goes on strike for a slightly better pension.

For further examples, look at the Labour MPs caught in the election expenses scandal and tell me they're about "society".

So by all means believe your original statement, but in my opinion it's utter nonsense.