Police state or the state of policing

[villakram]

7 hours ago, mockingbird_franklin said:

sound a bit mafia like doesnt it, now consider where they would get the money for actions against their victims

Living in the US, it does factually resemble that behavior at times, where it is not necessarily who is right that wins, just who has the most money (for legal bills) to drag the case out. 

This is where a lot of the pro-Trump/Cruz rightwing thinking comes from though. As all they see, are their honest hardworking tax dollars being spent for borderline corrupt (at least ethically) things like this. 

[blandy]

Quote

A secretive police unit tasked with spying on alleged extremists intent on committing serious crimes has been monitoring leading members of the Green party, the Guardian has learned.

Newly released documents show that the intelligence unit has been tracking the political activities of the MP Caroline Lucas and Sian Berry, the party’s candidate for London mayor

Some of the monitoring took place as recently as last year and seemed to contradict a pledge from Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan policecommissioner, that the unit would only target serious criminals rather than peaceful protesters.

Grauniad

 

[Jon]

That Lucas is a real risk to National Security! Surely their should be prosecutions if the work of this unit is doing underhand things? The sad thing is, nobody will be in the least bit surprised by this. The only real surprise is that this info has got out ... 

[snowychap]

Woman could face hate crime prosecution over anti-DUP banner

Quote

A woman has been questioned by police and could face a hate crime prosecution after she waved a banner at Belfast’s Pride parade reading “**** the DUP”.

In a case that could have consequences for free speech and the right to offend across the UK, the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) says it will pass a file to the region’s public prosecution service (PPS) after Ellie Evans, 24, held up the placard at the August parade to protest against the party’s policies on gay marriage.

The investigation was prompted by a complaint from DUP politician Jim Wells, who told the Guardian that the slogan constituted “incitement to hatred and potential public disorder”.

Evans, originally from Essex, confirmed that two PSNI detectives questioned her under caution on Monday. She said that in a later phone call she was told that the PPS would decide whether she should be prosecuted for a hate crime or a breach of public order.

...more on link

No, no, no.

Edited October 13, 2017 by snowychap

[tonyh29]

39 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Woman could face hate crime prosecution over anti-DUP banner

No, no, no.

BBC Ireland  doesn't mention it as a hate crime , they refer to it as

 breaching rules set out by the Parades Commission, a body that monitors and can place restrictions on parades in Northern Ireland.

presumably the use of the word ****  , which if it isn't suitable for VT , I guess isn't suitable for the High streets of the UK 

I don't know if that makes it worse ? 

 

she shouldn't be prosecuted and it didn't warrant a visit from the rozzers either  ,  but lets be honest she is a clearing in the woods for making a placard like that

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

42 minutes ago, snowychap said:

“incitement to hatred and potential public disorder”.

Can "incitement" and "potential" actually be measured and used in court ? 

Clapping is OK for example but if you shout or have a funny slogan T-shirt then your nicked or does it depend o the size of the material or fabric the message is written on ? 

 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

6 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

placard like that

The best ones are when they run out of space so the the last part of the placard is a bit s***  and small

Edited October 13, 2017 by Amsterdam_Neil_D

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

presumably the use of the word ****  , which if it isn't suitable for VT , I guess isn't suitable for the High streets of the UK 

I don't know if that makes it worse ? 

Limpid jogging around the High Streets and Wetherspoons of Britain sticking post it notes on people, reading '3 points, 2 weeks'.

 

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

BBC Ireland  doesn't mention it as a hate crime , they refer to it as

Quote

breaching rules set out by the Parades Commission, a body that monitors and can place restrictions on parades in Northern Ireland.

 

I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is here, Tony.

Actually, the BBC don't refer to it (i.e. the complaint made to the police and the subsequent police involvement) as that - they refer to the fact that the organisers on the day confiscated the placard for the above reason.

 

 

[tonyh29]

3 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is here, Tony.

Actually, the BBC don't refer to it (i.e. the complaint made to the police and the subsequent police involvement) as that - they refer to the fact that the organisers on the day confiscated the placard for the above reason.

 

 

I was trying to understand the cause of your no , no no. .... i.e was it the use of “hate crime “ as grounds to investigate her .... or just the fact it was investigated at all ? 

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

1 hour ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Can "incitement" and "potential" actually be measured and used in court ?

 

Many of our laws are based upon the principle of "a reasonable man". Putting it simply we have the right to reasonable free speech rather than total free speech.

What you do, how you do it, when you do it and why you do it are all considerations. Two identical actions can be treated very differently depending on these factors. The most obvious example being swearing. A reasonable man would expect a stronger use of language in a pub than outside a primary school. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Mandy Lifeboats
Speeling mishsteaks

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

I was trying to understand the cause of your no , no no. .... i.e was it the use of “hate crime “ as grounds to investigate her .... or just the fact it was investigated at all ? 

 

It was the lot. It was the mention of this 'hate crime' nonsense, it was the DUP div who made the complaint, and that the rozzers wasted their time and scarce resources following through with an investigation, interview and whatever else.

[blandy]

12 hours ago, snowychap said:

It was the lot. It was the mention of this 'hate crime' nonsense, it was the DUP div who made the complaint, and that the rozzers wasted their time and scarce resources following through with an investigation, interview and whatever else.

I am disappoint. I thought it was an homage to the late Rev. Iain Paisley.

[snowychap]

53 minutes ago, blandy said:

I am disappoint. I thought it was an homage to the late Rev. Iain Paisley.

I have to be honest in saying that I hadn't thought of that.

[wazzap24]

So, crime is up 13% in England and Wales. More worryingly, 'violent' crime is up 19% and knife crime 26%

 

Quote

The number of crimes recorded annually in England and Wales has passed the five million mark for the first time in 10 years, rising by 13%, figures show.

The Office for National Statistics said crimes in the 12 months to June were up from 4.6 million the previous year.

It said crime categorised as "violent" rose by 19%, with rises in offences including stalking and harassment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41677046

Worrying in itself, but according to the 'experts' nobody knows why violent crimes are on the rise. 

Are you absolutely f***ing kidding me? Nobody knows? Really? it's beyond the comprehension of experts to equate a rise in poverty, reductions in living standards and huge cuts to public services with a rise in crime? allllrighty then. 

 

 

[Dr_Pangloss]

Rolling back stop and search might explain some of the rise in knife crime. Controversial policy but potentially an effective one. 

[chrisp65]

I think we just need more optimistic statistics.

[Xela]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I think we just need more optimistic statistics.

69% of people agree with that. 

[snowychap]

Rural police forces consider giving guns to regular officers

Quote

Three police forces are considering plans to give guns to some uniformed bobbies on the beat in order to respond more quickly to a crisis situation, such as a terrorist attack.

The forces concerned are predominantly rural, and senior officers believe that their geography could mean that the current system of specialist firearms officers could lead to delays in getting them to the scene.

One option under consideration is for some officers to openly wear guns on their belt; another is for the guns to be stored securely in patrol cars. Any change would be in addition to having elite officers with guns in armed response vehicles.

The three forces have not been identified, but one of them is believed to be Devon and Cornwall police, whose chief constable Shaun Sawyer told the Guardian: “We have a terrorism threat, and then an increasing threat from serious and organised crime – gangs are coming into the south west from London and the north west – and [there are] copycat risks from people with mental health issues.”

British Transport police (BTP), which protects train stations and the rail network, is a fourth force that is considering arming its officers. Adrian Hanstock, the deputy chief constable, said: “We are actively considering and looking at the options – no decisions have been made – to see how we best protect the public from an obvious and real threat.”

Hanstock said the terrorist attacks Britain suffered this year meant that fresh thinking was needed on the issue of armed police.

In March, an armed protection officer who happened to be in the Palace of Westminster in London shot dead Khalid Masood after he had stabbed an unarmed policeman.

“We cherish the model of an unarmed police force,” Hanstock said. “[But] when you consider how the attack at Westminster was halted by an armed officer who was already there, you can speculate that if there had been armed officers at London Bridge, or other incidents, would the attack have been halted sooner?”

During the London Bridge attack in June, BTP officer Wayne Marques came face to face with the terrorists armed only with a baton, and was stabbed in the head.

BTP covers transport hubs, which can be crowded and are potential terrorist targets.

Police chiefs will meet in January 2018 to discuss the issues. A paper called “Arming the police” was debated by police chiefs at a meeting in October, which led to a small number of forces exploring options, up to and including the “routine arming” of some officers.

The new plans follow a review of every police forces’ ability to respond to gun violence and how long armed officers would take to get to incidents. That exercise found that some forces would take longer than others. More rural forces are deemed to face a lower threat of terrorist attack than urban counterparts.

Devon and Cornwall has 3,000 police officers who cover an area of 4,000 sq miles. The population of 1.7 million people swells in the summer months with 11 million visitors.

The force’s armed response vehicles usually carry two officers. The large area the force covers means getting enough armed officers to the scene of a shooting could give attackers a long time before they were challenged by enough officers with firearms.

Sawyer said: “The current configuration [of armed officers] is not right. The response times are too long. The disparity is too great compared to other forces. We are actively working with the national counter-terrorism infrastructure to finalise our understanding of the threat and response times.

Sawyer added: “We have a high rate of mental health issues and more firearms in our counties of Devon and Cornwall than others.”

Currently, armed policing is a specialist role. Volunteers receive six weeks of training and regularly have to be withdrawn from duty for refresher training. They are an expensive option at a time of unprecedented strain on budgets.

Under the plans being considered, regular officers would get two weeks of firearms training, most likely with a Glock handgun, similar to their counterparts in the Police Service of Northern Ireland, who are routinely armed when on patrol.

Two of Britain’s worst mass shootings happened in rural areas. Derrick Bird killed 12 people in Cumbria in 2010, while Michael Ryan killed 16 in Hungerford, Berkshire, in 1987.

Alison Hernandez, Devon and Cornwall’s police and crime commissioner, suggested in June that farmers and other local gun owners could help stretched police tackle any armed terrorist attack.

 

[bickster]

How many terrorist attacks have occurred in rural areas?

I guess there was the Great Wasdale Sheep Slaughter of 1742.

They must take us for idiots... what do you mean, the general public mainly are