Jump to content
brummybloke

New forward needed in January?

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I generally agree with you on the El Ghazi point.

But as for Wesley, remove the Norwich game from the equation because that game was an incredible anomaly and is not representative at all of how he usually plays. The criticism that about how its playing with 10 men with him is in reference to his usual game, which is worlds away from that one game.

Without that game, Wesley has 2 goals and 0 assists out of 12 goals we've scored. 

For every footballer that looked shit at Wesley's level of development and then turned out to be world class there are also many footballers that looked shit at Wesley's level of development and continued to be shit for the rest of their career. Which is why I find the whole, listing all the players who were initially shit at Wesley's level of development and then became good whether it be age or time as a professional footballer, whichever suits the narrative more, to be a garbage argument.

My point wasn't that he will or won't be great it was that throwing him under the bus at this point in his career is ridiculous. He is the equivalent of probably a 17 or 18 year old in terms of technical ability. Also aside from his 2 goals (excluding Norwich game) wesley got a pass to assist at Brighton, Everton and held off Davison sanchez for mcginns goal. In other words excluding the Norwich game he has been a key piece in 42% of our goals and if you exclude set pieces that is the equivalent of 50% contribution rate which in my books is pretty good. Once again completely underselling what he has contributed to our campaign. Let's face it we have been generally poor when getting the ball up the pitch and too our players feet in dangerous positions. Against wolves wesley probably got the ball what 3 or 4 times in their final third and only once in a good position for a shot (twice if you count the ball he couldn't quite get on) which I'm sorry whilst he should have hit the target was a pretty good effort. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

We can’t afford for Wesley not to do well, if we doesn’t, we will get relegated or close to it. As it stands, I’d bite your hand off for 17th.

I miss Abraham greatly, he was terrific for us and played a big role in us getting promoted. He was always destined for bigger things though sadly, as he has shown this season with Chelsea

I can see what you’re saying with Sharp but I think he’s such a natural goalscorer, he could pretty much play in any side. The Sheffield United side is pretty much built around him

As for Vardy, I think he is a bit of an animal but I like that side of him. A lot of players these days are too nice 

Totally agree.

Like it .....I love that side of his game....yes they are too nice and we have one of two....Arsenal are a good example.....all fanny and no ****

Vardy is only slight for a number 9 our own Andy Gray wasn't that big......its all in the attitude, approach  and the fire in the belly.....We have to try and find one, with all that.

I would also bite your hand off for 17th.....but things can change.

The good things is.....Dean can see all this stuff, I just hope the players have it in them to respond to his instruction.

I could tell you a story of fact about Andy Gray and his approach to a game, a Liverpool game.....it might bore some folk on here....PM me if you are interested.

 

Edited by TRO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TRO said:

Totally agree.

Vardy is only slight for a number 9 our own Andy Gray wasn't that big......its all in the attitude, approach  and the fire in the belly.....We have to try and find one.

I would also bite your hand off for 17th.....but things can change.

The good things is.....Dean can see all this stuff, I just hope the players have it in them to respond to his instruction.

I could tell you a story of fact about Andy Gray and his approach to a game, a Liverpool game.....it might bore some folk on here....PM me if you are interested.

 

I don’t think Wesley should be written off, far from it, we’ve paid an awful lot of money for a foreign import. He has shown some signs that he should be persevered with but another centre forward on top of Wesley should’ve been brought in the Summer. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, MotoMkali said:

None were headers though. They were low bouncing balls that our attackers could volley in or the defenders struggled to deal with. We currently do not have the size note the skill in the air to be playing high crosses into the box. The only 'proper' cross was against Norwich where wes chested the ball down and turned and finished. 

Does it really matter, they were crosses that cut out opposition keeper and defence so in my mind good crosses.

Tammy Abraham scored loads from crosses last season, sometimes with his head aswell. Largely the same group of players aswell. His movement as we all know was brilliant in the six yard box. I think that's where Wesley is struggling, he's far too static and is seemingly just waiting for the ball to be laid on a plate for him rather than gambling on areas where the cross might end up.

We don't have the quality of Liverpool's FBs so expecting constant pinpoint crosses onto a forward head all the time is a bit optimistic I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Does it really matter, they were crosses that cut out opposition keeper and defence so in my mind good crosses.

Tammy Abraham scored loads from crosses last season, sometimes with his head aswell. Largely the same group of players aswell. His movement as we all know was brilliant in the six yard box. I think that's where Wesley is struggling, he's far too static and is seemingly just waiting for the ball to be laid on a plate for him rather than gambling on areas where the cross might end up.

We don't have the quality of Liverpool's FBs so expecting constant pinpoint crosses onto a forward head all the time is a bit optimistic I think.

Chris, I think we are a long way from comparing to their quality.....many of our crosses are rank poor from corners.....when was the last headed corner scored?

Conor has a decent delivery as does JM .....but we do have plenty of low grade stuff.

I also thought Mings and Engles could weigh in with a few headed goals, but not much sign of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, TRO said:

Chris, I think we are a long way from comparing to their quality.....many of our crosses are rank poor from corners.....when was the last headed corner scored?

Conor has a decent delivery as does JM .....but we do have plenty of low grade stuff.

I also thought Mings and Engles could weigh in with a few headed goals, but not much sign of that.

Only 6 other teams in the PL have scored more in terms of corners than us this season, which is 2. And we're barely winning corners to begin with, being the 4th worst team in terms of average corners won per game. I don't mind how we score from these corners, as long as we score them and I don't think we're doing too bad in that department stats wise.

 

Edited by Laughable Chimp
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, TRO said:

Chris, I think we are a long way from comparing to their quality.....many of our crosses are rank poor from corners.....when was the last headed corner scored?

Conor has a decent delivery as does JM .....but we do have plenty of low grade stuff.

I also thought Mings and Engles could weigh in with a few headed goals, but not much sign of that.

Yeah corners been poor this year but then in majority of games we've actually hardly had any.

Frustrating anyway as Mings showed last year with good pace and accuracy he's very capable of getting on the end of them. That's one area I'd agree we need to improve, probably not a co-incidence that Hourihane hasn't started a huge amount.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

We can’t afford for Wesley not to do well, if we doesn’t, we will get relegated or close to it. As it stands, I’d bite your hand off for 17th.

I miss Abraham greatly, he was terrific for us and played a big role in us getting promoted. He was always destined for bigger things though sadly, as he has shown this season with Chelsea

I can see what you’re saying with Sharp but I think he’s such a natural goalscorer, he could pretty much play in any side. The Sheffield United side is pretty much built around him

As for Vardy, I think he is a bit of an animal but I like that side of him. A lot of players these days are too nice 

I actually believe that Tammy A is very close to being England's best CF, I can see him starting ahead of Kane for England before long.

You are !00% right about Vardy, when he steps on the pitch he is only focused on one thing & will run thru walls to get there. Wesley needs a touch more of that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, gurru991 said:

I actually believe that Tammy A is very close to being England's best CF, I can see him starting ahead of Kane for England before long.

You are !00% right about Vardy, when he steps on the pitch he is only focused on one thing & will run thru walls to get there. Wesley needs a touch more of that.

I think Abraham is fantastic but to say he’s better than England’s captain and potentially England’s best striker of all time in Kane is a bit wide of the mark in my opinion. 

A lot of Villa fans have been getting on Wesley’s back but I think he’s doing just fine, although he hasn’t scored for a few games. He just needs one to go in off his backside to stop the rot and get the fans onside again 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, VillaChris said:

Does it really matter, they were crosses that cut out opposition keeper and defence so in my mind good crosses.

Tammy Abraham scored loads from crosses last season, sometimes with his head aswell. Largely the same group of players aswell. His movement as we all know was brilliant in the six yard box. I think that's where Wesley is struggling, he's far too static and is seemingly just waiting for the ball to be laid on a plate for him rather than gambling on areas where the cross might end up.

We don't have the quality of Liverpool's FBs so expecting constant pinpoint crosses onto a forward head all the time is a bit optimistic I think.

No what I'm saying is we don't have the requisite heading ability to play floaty crosses. We need low balls that our midfielders and wingers can have a prayer of finishing not just wesley. Plus so far this year we have probably played 3 good "proper" crosses in but none have resulted in goals because heading is a harder skill to score with than volleys headers are way easier to sky.

Also in case you haven't noticed wesley has made the same run to the front Post that he did against Norwich and arsenal, against both Burnley and wolves and in both games he was unlucky to not get on the end of it. The problem is we aren't really working it into useful positions for the balls we can score off of. We need to get to the byline and drill low balls in. They are the most dangerous balls in football. 1 touch from the striker it is in. A misread from the defender it is in. A parry from the keeper easy finish from the six yard line. 

Despite not doing this very often we have got 5 goals from these positions: wesley twice, grealish against brighton, mcginn against Burnley from trez's cross (+ his disallowed goal), and arguably targetts goal against Brighton was from this position although he went fro the shot but he still scored. And you have a missed wesley run against wolves, 2 hourihane strikes against Brighton etc. This has contributed to a third of our goals despite us probably only attempting maybe 10% of our shots from these scenarios.

Also they help win corners which we have been struggling to do this year being the 4th worst at it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gurru991 said:

I actually believe that Tammy A is very close to being England's best CF, I can see him starting ahead of Kane for England before long.

You are !00% right about Vardy, when he steps on the pitch he is only focused on one thing & will run thru walls to get there. Wesley needs a touch more of that.

45 minutes ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

I think Abraham is fantastic but to say he’s better than England’s captain and potentially England’s best striker of all time in Kane is a bit wide of the mark in my opinion. 

A lot of Villa fans have been getting on Wesley’s back but I think he’s doing just fine, although he hasn’t scored for a few games. He just needs one to go in off his backside to stop the rot and get the fans onside again 

Read it again !!

I never said thatTammy was better. I said that he was very close to being Englands best CF. I never said the best of all time, I was referring to the the present day. Kane is just plain awful lately and Tammy is hot. Work it out !!

PS If you think Kane is the best striker of all time then bless you.

Edited by gurru991

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I generally agree with you on the El Ghazi point.

But as for Wesley, remove the Norwich game from the equation because that game was an incredible anomaly and is not representative at all of how he usually plays. The criticism that about how its playing with 10 men with him is in reference to his usual game, which is worlds away from that one game.

Without that game, Wesley has 2 goals and 0 assists out of 12 goals we've scored. 

For every footballer that looked shit at Wesley's level of development and then turned out to be world class there are also many footballers that looked shit at Wesley's level of development and continued to be shit for the rest of their career. Which is why I find the whole, listing all the players who were initially shit at Wesley's level of development and then became good whether it be age or time as a professional footballer, whichever suits the narrative more, to be a garbage argument.

Why would you remove that game other than to paint a particular picture? It happened. He should have had 3 that day, he played that well. 

Also on the topic of development, this is just the 5th year of Wesley's life where he's been a professional footballer or played football full time. He's barely at Hepburn-Murphy's level of development and yet he's played and scored in CL games and is now coming into being the main man for a PL team.

Talking about replacing him in his first January window at the club is just way too soon. Signing someone else to supplement him and take the load off him, sure. But deciding he isn't good enough after a dozen games just isn't right.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Why would you remove that game other than to paint a particular picture? It happened. He should have had 3 that day, he played that well. 

Talking about replacing him in his first January window at the club is just way too soon. Signing someone else to supplement him and take the load off him, sure. But deciding he isn't good enough after a dozen games just isn't right.

Because, its completely  unrepresentative of how he usually plays. If a particular result is so out of the norm, it may not be included into the analysis, as it can give a skewed representation of the player. Now, if Wesley shows that he can repeat that kind of performance with the results that come with in the future,then the Norwich match can be reconsidered to be included but if its just a one-off that would only occur in a very specific set of circumstances and doesn't seem like it will happen again or very rarely,(facing arguably the worst team in the league in defensively) there's really no reason to include it in the analysis as we're not gonna be facing the worst team in the league defensively very often in the future. And the only reason for the analysis is to give an idea of how good Wesley will play in the future.

I agree with the rest though. Personally I think Wesley will come good, I just don't think we can afford to solely rely on him hoping that he eventually does come good. But I do think Davis might actually be good enough to lead the line for us and is worth giving a chance. I know he's been better than Wesley everytime he's come on, and yeah apparently his finishing is crap but I haven't really seen much evidence from his appearances this season in the PL to think so yet. That's mostly due to him lacking game time though which leads me back into wanting to see him given a proper chance in the PL when he returns from injury,

Edited by Laughable Chimp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, gurru991 said:

Read it again !!

I never said thatTammy was better. I said that he was very close to being Englands best CF. I never said the best of all time, I was referring to the the present day. Kane is just plain awful lately and Tammy is hot. Work it out !!

PS If you think Kane is the best striker of all time then bless you.

According to wiki, Kane has scored 28 goals in 43 games for England. At this rate, he’s going to smash Rooney’s record and then some

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, gurru991 said:

Read it again !!

I never said thatTammy was better. I said that he was very close to being Englands best CF. I never said the best of all time, I was referring to the the present day. Kane is just plain awful lately and Tammy is hot. Work it out !!

PS If you think Kane is the best striker of all time then bless you.

In fairness he did say 'potentially', which is more than fair to say, time will tell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I generally agree with you on the El Ghazi point.

But as for Wesley, remove the Norwich game from the equation because that game was an incredible anomaly and is not representative at all of how he usually plays. The criticism that about how its playing with 10 men with him is in reference to his usual game, which is worlds away from that one game.

Without that game, Wesley has 2 goals and 0 assists out of 12 goals we've scored. 

For every footballer that looked shit at Wesley's level of development and then turned out to be world class there are also many footballers that looked shit at Wesley's level of development and continued to be shit for the rest of their career. Which is why I find the whole, listing all the players who were initially shit at Wesley's level of development and then became good whether it be age or time as a professional footballer, whichever suits the narrative more, to be a garbage argument.

Good example of making statistics fit whatever argument you want to make. When do OPTA ever provide stats for players but remove anomalous games?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Only 6 other teams in the PL have scored more in terms of corners than us this season, which is 2. And we're barely winning corners to begin with, being the 4th worst team in terms of average corners won per game. I don't mind how we score from these corners, as long as we score them and I don't think we're doing too bad in that department stats wise.

 

Interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Because, its completely  unrepresentative of how he usually plays. If a particular result is so out of the norm, it may not be included into the analysis, as it can give a skewed representation of the player. Now, if Wesley shows that he can repeat that kind of performance with the results that come with in the future,then the Norwich match can be reconsidered to be included but if its just a one-off that would only occur in a very specific set of circumstances and doesn't seem like it will happen again or very rarely,(facing arguably the worst team in the league in defensively) there's really no reason to include it in the analysis as we're not gonna be facing the worst team in the league defensively very often in the future. And the only reason for the analysis is to give an idea of how good Wesley will play in the future.

I agree with the rest though. Personally I think Wesley will come good, I just don't think we can afford to solely rely on him hoping that he eventually does come good. But I do think Davis might actually be good enough to lead the line for us and is worth giving a chance. I know he's been better than Wesley everytime he's come on, and yeah apparently his finishing is crap but I haven't really seen much evidence from his appearances this season in the PL to think so yet. That's mostly due to him lacking game time though which leads me back into wanting to see him given a proper chance in the PL when he returns from injury,

Personally, i don't think you can do that as an accurate view, what you suggest in your first paragraph.....a case could be made for every game, as they are all so different...why not take out the top 2 teams who are difficult to score against?

That's why we take averages, which encorporates, development changes as well particularly in a 22 year old player....there are so many factors that can change over 9-10 months.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Because, its completely  unrepresentative of how he usually plays. If a particular result is so out of the norm, it may not be included into the analysis, as it can give a skewed representation of the player. Now, if Wesley shows that he can repeat that kind of performance with the results that come with in the future,then the Norwich match can be reconsidered to be included but if its just a one-off that would only occur in a very specific set of circumstances and doesn't seem like it will happen again or very rarely,(facing arguably the worst team in the league in defensively) there's really no reason to include it in the analysis as we're not gonna be facing the worst team in the league defensively very often in the future. And the only reason for the analysis is to give an idea of how good Wesley will play in the future.

I agree with the rest though. Personally I think Wesley will come good, I just don't think we can afford to solely rely on him hoping that he eventually does come good. But I do think Davis might actually be good enough to lead the line for us and is worth giving a chance. I know he's been better than Wesley everytime he's come on, and yeah apparently his finishing is crap but I haven't really seen much evidence from his appearances this season in the PL to think so yet. That's mostly due to him lacking game time though which leads me back into wanting to see him given a proper chance in the PL when he returns from injury,

Personally, i don't think you can do that as an accurate view, what you suggest in your first paragraph.....a case could be made for every game, as they are all so different...why not take out the top 2 teams who are difficult to score against?

That's why we take averages, which encorporates, development changes as well particularly in a 22 year old player....there are so many factors that can change over 9-10 months.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...
Â