Villan4Life Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, TRO said: Not when he was at Coventry he wasn't or Maddison for that matter. my point was.....where are/were our scouts, these guys was under our nose at one time. I suggested both Maddison & Wilson on VillaTalk when both was at Coventry! I had watched them and knew of their potential then suggested them on here... way before professional scouts at time had probably even heard of them. It's one of the reason's i decided to become a professional scout myself back in summer of 2017 Edited November 7, 2019 by Villan4Life 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Villan4Life said: I suggested both Maddison & WIlson on VillaTalk when both was at Coventry! I had watched them and knew of their potential way before more established scouts at time... It's one of the reason's i decided to become a professional scout mysle back in summer of 2017 One of the reasons in my earlier posts I wished you was with us.....in more ways than one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan4Life Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, TRO said: One of the reasons in my earlier posts I wished you was with us.....in more ways than one. Thank mate. I wish too. Alas though Dreams hopefully may come true one day.. i hope and i won't give up just yet!!! UTV Edited November 7, 2019 by Villan4Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 44 minutes ago, Villan4Life said: I suggested both Maddison & Wilson on VillaTalk when both was at Coventry! I had watched them and knew of their potential then suggested them on here... way before professional scouts at time had probably even heard of them. It's one of the reason's i decided to become a professional scout myself back in summer of 2017 As if you failed getting them to sign for us V4L out!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 20 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: It really isn't and that's obvious to anyone. He might get there, but saying he's good at it now is just taking the piss. Genuinly makes me wonder if you have seen strikers that are good at it. When he has got the ball he is good at hold up play and finding the right pass. The problem is we aren't giving him the right balls for him to do it. We either need to be more accurate at finding him with our long balls (unlikely) or we should pass the ball to his feet which worked very well against Norwich and arsenal in the first half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 20 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: It really isn't and that's obvious to anyone. He might get there, but saying he's good at it now is just taking the piss. Genuinly makes me wonder if you have seen strikers that are good at it. When he has got the ball he is good at hold up play and finding the right pass. The problem is we aren't giving him the right balls for him to do it. We either need to be more accurate at finding him with our long balls (unlikely) or we should pass the ball to his feet which worked very well against Norwich and arsenal in the first half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, TRO said: If you think i am talking "at you" I apologise as i have always found your posts generous to your recipient. Your response is better late than never. I accept we all have different views on these things, when we explain our thoughts and lay them out on the table....it just helps others understand out thinking, whether they think we are right or wrong. I understand the thoughts of Van Nistleroy and furthermore a top striker once told me how he laughed when a journalist described one of his goals saying the accuracy was predetermined.....He said to me " I just aim in the general direction of the goal" Too much is made of goals in that sense, but I agree its not easy to get a goal went you want one, otherwise, Liverpool would not have waited 87 minutes. I was making a very general point of a striker scoring consistently as opposed to just adding numbers to a table.....some appear high on these lists based on a glut of penalties, which in my mind also requires special consideration, when lauding a striker. Well said, open dialogue forms greater understanding as we explore more detail and perspective than if we were all on our own. FWIW, talking at each other was probably the wrong phrase, I just meant for me the exchange lacked clarity, and I was quite distracted when I replied, not so attentive. I think I understand your stance better now, and I can agree with it. Iniesta played near 500 games and scored less than one in 10. Lampard played the same in games but scored 3 times as many goals. Which is the better attacking midfielder? For me, it's Iniesta ninety-nine times out of a hundred.. Edited November 7, 2019 by A'Villan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 20 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: It really isn't and that's obvious to anyone. He might get there, but saying he's good at it now is just taking the piss. Genuinly makes me wonder if you have seen strikers that are good at it. When he has got the ball he is good at hold up play and finding the right pass. The problem is we aren't giving him the right balls for him to do it. We either need to be more accurate at finding him with our long balls (unlikely) or we should pass the ball to his feet which worked very well against Norwich and arsenal in the first half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: It really isn't and that's obvious to anyone. He might get there, but saying he's good at it now is just taking the piss. Genuinly makes me wonder if you have seen strikers that are good at Delete Edited November 7, 2019 by MotoMkali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: It really isn't and that's obvious to anyone. He might get there, but saying he's good at it Delete Edited November 7, 2019 by MotoMkali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 hours ago, MotoMkali said: When he has got the ball he is good at hold up play and finding the right pass. The problem is we aren't giving him the right balls for him to do it. We either need to be more accurate at finding him with our long balls (unlikely) or we should pass the ball to his feet which worked very well against Norwich and arsenal in the first half. Just Scott Hogan excuses mk2. He's gotten the ball plenty, but he rarely manages to do the hold up play well. Davis pulled up the midfield more often in 45 minutes than Wesley has done in 10 matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 44 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Just Scott Hogan excuses mk2. He's gotten the ball plenty, but he rarely manages to do the hold up play well. Davis pulled up the midfield more often in 45 minutes than Wesley has done in 10 matches. In 85 minutes of game time per game wesley averages 15 passes. He also does the equivalent of lose the ball 5 and a half times per game meaning he receives the ball about 20 times per game and you expect me to believe he is getting the necessary amount of service to flourish as a striker. Mcginn gets the ball 35 ish times per game as well which is really low for midfielder. We clearly need to work on getting the ball to our best players more consistently so they can have a bigger impact on games. And get the ball to just everyone more consistently so they can do anything. I don't believe aguero would have scored more goals for us this year than Wesley has because we aren't providing our striker with the necessary service for him to much of anything. In the Norwich game wesley was dropping deeper we were playing more balls to his feet players were running past him creating space for him and everyone else to operate in but we haven't really done that again since then. The arsenal game we did it in the first half which is why we scored twice against an alright team because we played to Wesley's strengths which allowed everyone else's strengths to come to the fore. I'm tired of everyone scapegoating wesley and hourihane. It wasn't hourihane fault trez's ball to him had a little to much pace on it so the keeper was on him when he got their and it isn't wes's fault we keep hoofing the ball to the general vicinity of the defender furthest away from wes yet we insist it is wes's fault that he isn't winning the ball. Maybe look at Heaton and how he has completed onkly 53% of his passes. What about mings. We got lucky with mcginn running in on opening day helped by wes's excellent ability to keep sanchez away from mcginn aide from that it was a poor ball not close enough for wes to win it and without an excellent run from mcginn the ball would have easily been picked up by Danny Rose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Cheeky Freddy Adu announcement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MotoMkali said: In 85 minutes of game time per game wesley averages 15 passes. He also does the equivalent of lose the ball 5 and a half times per game meaning he receives the ball about 20 times per game and you expect me to believe he is getting the necessary amount of service to flourish as a striker. Mcginn gets the ball 35 ish times per game as well which is really low for midfielder. We clearly need to work on getting the ball to our best players more consistently so they can have a bigger impact on games. And get the ball to just everyone more consistently so they can do anything. I don't believe aguero would have scored more goals for us this year than Wesley has because we aren't providing our striker with the necessary service for him to much of anything. In the Norwich game wesley was dropping deeper we were playing more balls to his feet players were running past him creating space for him and everyone else to operate in but we haven't really done that again since then. The arsenal game we did it in the first half which is why we scored twice against an alright team because we played to Wesley's strengths which allowed everyone else's strengths to come to the fore. I'm tired of everyone scapegoating wesley and hourihane. It wasn't hourihane fault trez's ball to him had a little to much pace on it so the keeper was on him when he got their and it isn't wes's fault we keep hoofing the ball to the general vicinity of the defender furthest away from wes yet we insist it is wes's fault that he isn't winning the ball. Maybe look at Heaton and how he has completed onkly 53% of his passes. What about mings. We got lucky with mcginn running in on opening day helped by wes's excellent ability to keep sanchez away from mcginn aide from that it was a poor ball not close enough for wes to win it and without an excellent run from mcginn the ball would have easily been picked up by Danny Rose. 1-Passes isn't the right stats for it if you're looking for how many times Wesley actually has hold of the ball. Whoscored measures the "posession" which I believe to be a more accurate measure of this. In the previous 3 PL games, Wesley had had an average of 1.4% possession of the ball out of the whole match. Aguero averaged 2%. Aguero got 2 goals in an assist in these 3 games. Wesley has had neither. I still don't think possession is a particularly good measure of the quality of service anyway, but I still think its better than passes Wesley makes. 2-We only got one goal in the first half of the Arsenal game, so trying to say that our style of play in the first half is what contributed to us scoring 2 goals eventually is odd. Plus, they weren't even an alright team for most of the game considering they were down to 10 men yet we still were pretty much on the backfoot for the second half in spite of it. 3-This whole, Wesley doesn't get enough good service argument is weird to me since Davis seems to be doing significantly better whenever he's subbed on for Wesley at actually holding up the ball. This has happened several times whenever Davis has got on the pitch for Wesley. Did the other players magically get better at giving the striker the ball each time? Honestly, our service may not be the best but its increasingly starting to appear as if he isn't able to do much unless he gets the highest quality of service, just look at the goals he's scored so far, they've all been very close to the goal and were provided to him with great service.] Just had a look at the Wesley goals so far again. Arsenal and Norwich's second goals were both tap ins, set up for him on a silver platter. First Norwich goal didn't have great service, just the Norwich defender **** up so the cross somehow ended up right in front of Wesley and just outside the 6 yard box with only the keeper to beat. The Everton goal was a masterful ball by Jota that Wesley picked up and credit to him made the right run for, and he ends up again just outside the 6 yard box with only the keeper to beat. Of course he needed to be in these positions to score the goals and I give him credit for being there, but the quality of service that was provided for Wesley in almost all these goals have been top notch. The problem is that he doesn't seem do anything of note with the ball, much less score if the service is anything less. Edited November 8, 2019 by Laughable Chimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zab6359 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Morelos can't stop scoring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said: 1-Passes isn't the right stats for it if you're looking for how many times Wesley actually has hold of the ball. Whoscored measures the "posession" which I believe to be a more accurate measure of this. In the previous 3 PL games, Wesley had had an average of 1.4% possession of the ball out of the whole match. Aguero averaged 2%. Aguero got 2 goals in an assist in these 3 games. Wesley has had neither. I still don't think possession is a particularly good measure of the quality of service anyway, but I still think its better than passes Wesley makes. 2-We only got one goal in the first half of the Arsenal game, so trying to say that our style of play in the first half is what contributed to us scoring 2 goals eventually is odd. Plus, they weren't even an alright team for most of the game considering they were down to 10 men yet we still were pretty much on the backfoot for the second half in spite of it. 3-This whole, Wesley doesn't get enough good service argument is weird to me since Davis seems to be doing significantly better whenever he's subbed on for Wesley at actually holding up the ball. This has happened several times whenever Davis has got on the pitch for Wesley. Did the other players magically get better at giving the striker the ball each time? Honestly, our service may not be the best but its increasingly starting to appear as if he isn't able to do much unless he gets the highest quality of service, just look at the goals he's scored so far, they've all been very close to the goal and were provided to him with great service.] Just had a look at the Wesley goals so far again. Arsenal and Norwich's second goals were both tap ins, set up for him on a silver platter. First Norwich goal didn't have great service, just the Norwich defender **** up so the cross somehow ended up right in front of Wesley and just outside the 6 yard box with only the keeper to beat. The Everton goal was a masterful ball by Jota that Wesley picked up and credit to him made the right run for, and he ends up again just outside the 6 yard box with only the keeper to beat. Of course he needed to be in these positions to score the goals and I give him credit for being there, but the quality of service that was provided for Wesley in almost all these goals have been top notch. The problem is that he doesn't seem do anything of note with the ball, much less score if the service is anything less. Couldn't find it on who scored so it just tallied up times the relinquished possession of the ball through passing or through other means. His goals have been tap ins but when he gets the ball to his feet he makes good decisions with it. Like when he played guilbert through for his cross to grealish's goal. We need to be a lot better at finding his feet because the way it is right now he is already on the backfoot if he wins the ball at all and it will likely cause him to lose it. 2) I made a mistake regarding the arsenal goal sure but for the first 55-60 minutes we were the much better side and we didn't resort to hoofing it long once we did we slowly lost control of the match and gave ground to arsenal. 3)When keinan comes on we have been chasing a goal in probably all of his appearances so instead of hoofing the ball long to him like we do for wesley for 70mins we actually play nicer football and allow him to get into the game. For example Davis averages as many passes as mcginn does over a full 90 minutes. This shows a couple of things 1 mcginn isn't getting the ball enough 2-Davis is getting the ball in good positions from his teammates where he can quickly and easily move the ball on. I don't really remember any long balls whilst Davis is on the pitch though I am sure we have done some whereas for wesley I remember him chasing 3 or 4 long balls that he has no hope to win per game. When wesley comes deeper we are better but as it is the tactics make him stand as far away as he can and rely on the off chance someone actually plays a ball to within 10 yards of him so he can be in position ice the ball starts falling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMelvillan Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 2 hours ago, zab6359 said: Morelos can't stop scoring! cracking finish last night. real good player. bit of a nut but I kinda dont mind that - sometimes feel we can be too "nice" a team, especially since Cafu left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, MotoMkali said: Couldn't find it on who scored so it just tallied up times the relinquished possession of the ball through passing or through other means. His goals have been tap ins but when he gets the ball to his feet he makes good decisions with it. Like when he played guilbert through for his cross to grealish's goal. We need to be a lot better at finding his feet because the way it is right now he is already on the backfoot if he wins the ball at all and it will likely cause him to lose it. 2) I made a mistake regarding the arsenal goal sure but for the first 55-60 minutes we were the much better side and we didn't resort to hoofing it long once we did we slowly lost control of the match and gave ground to arsenal. 3)When keinan comes on we have been chasing a goal in probably all of his appearances so instead of hoofing the ball long to him like we do for wesley for 70mins we actually play nicer football and allow him to get into the game. For example Davis averages as many passes as mcginn does over a full 90 minutes. This shows a couple of things 1 mcginn isn't getting the ball enough 2-Davis is getting the ball in good positions from his teammates where he can quickly and easily move the ball on. I don't really remember any long balls whilst Davis is on the pitch though I am sure we have done some whereas for wesley I remember him chasing 3 or 4 long balls that he has no hope to win per game. When wesley comes deeper we are better but as it is the tactics make him stand as far away as he can and rely on the off chance someone actually plays a ball to within 10 yards of him so he can be in position ice the ball starts falling. Once again, you make good points worthy of consideration. The ball from Jota which was played in to space and Wes anticipated it ( Everton Goal)......that's what we need to do more of.....playing balls to feet are telegraphic and predictable in many cases, this allows the opposition to close down.The paradox is we do tend to give the ball away too easily, another reason why we run out of steam, as well as marring the ability to find Wes. Gary Lineker once said in answering an analytical question about his goal scoring......I attack the space, that is my strategy.....they know where to put it, I know where to go. Thats what Wes did for that goal, he can do it, it needs to be more natural and consistent....it will come. I feel if we improve our movement OFF the ball the passing will get better and the opportunities will open up and become more meaningful.....but we have to be in sync and more cohesive with each other. A lot of this is down to decision making and co-ordination......I feel part of our improvement plan is to be more proactive and less reactive. I guess understanding each others play and idiosynchrasies will help and that should help the more games we play. I am sure the coaches can see this and it takes longer to get somethings right...... On Another note......I still think tightening up that back post from aerial threat is a priority and that, in theory, should be quicker to fix.....if the coaches agree of course. Edited November 8, 2019 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 10 hours ago, MotoMkali said: In 85 minutes of game time per game wesley averages 15 passes. He also does the equivalent of lose the ball 5 and a half times per game meaning he receives the ball about 20 times per game and you expect me to believe he is getting the necessary amount of service to flourish as a striker. Mcginn gets the ball 35 ish times per game as well which is really low for midfielder. We clearly need to work on getting the ball to our best players more consistently so they can have a bigger impact on games. And get the ball to just everyone more consistently so they can do anything. I don't believe aguero would have scored more goals for us this year than Wesley has because we aren't providing our striker with the necessary service for him to much of anything. In the Norwich game wesley was dropping deeper we were playing more balls to his feet players were running past him creating space for him and everyone else to operate in but we haven't really done that again since then. The arsenal game we did it in the first half which is why we scored twice against an alright team because we played to Wesley's strengths which allowed everyone else's strengths to come to the fore. I'm tired of everyone scapegoating wesley and hourihane. It wasn't hourihane fault trez's ball to him had a little to much pace on it so the keeper was on him when he got their and it isn't wes's fault we keep hoofing the ball to the general vicinity of the defender furthest away from wes yet we insist it is wes's fault that he isn't winning the ball. Maybe look at Heaton and how he has completed onkly 53% of his passes. What about mings. We got lucky with mcginn running in on opening day helped by wes's excellent ability to keep sanchez away from mcginn aide from that it was a poor ball not close enough for wes to win it and without an excellent run from mcginn the ball would have easily been picked up by Danny Rose. I really like your analysis.....shows you watch the game. I think the things you are picking up on are mainly decision making.....its one of the main components in the very best players portfolio.Dean has already touched on this in some of his analysis, its something we have to get better with, but its a gradual process. When we play better, its a multitude of ingredients coming together.....its rarely one thing holding us back. On a different note in terms of watching the game....I think its easy to come to a conclusion that a player is playing poorly for 90 odd minutes........but when a player playes well for 70 and then not so good for 20, that is much harder to pick up and come to terms with. With the quality in this league, its much more difficult to stay on it for 90 minutes and errors can be made.....we just have to grow in to this league and get gradually better....its not an overnight thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 18 hours ago, Villan4Life said: I suggested both Maddison & Wilson on VillaTalk when both was at Coventry! I had watched them and knew of their potential then suggested them on here... way before professional scouts at time had probably even heard of them. It's one of the reason's i decided to become a professional scout myself back in summer of 2017 Total digression, but what happened to that central midfielder Coventry had last season who people talked about. Bayliss or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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