Rugby World Cup 2019

[bobzy]

On 02/11/2019 at 17:31, JB said:

Ah see, that’s what’s a lot of people say - “An English person was a word removed to me once - it’s just banter”.

Yes, there are undoubtedly proportionately just as many English dick heads but there’s not the obsession that there is with a lot of Welsh people. It’s not banter - it’s almost a belief system. There’s a genuine dislike for the English and the pleasure they derive from our failure is ridiculous.

I’ve lived in Wales for years now and I’ve seen some shit. Stuff like the story I posted above is not uncommon. The dynamic between SHA/Villa is a decent comparison (only without the huge disparity in achievement). 

It’s stoked by infantile tabloid shit like Wales Online which always has stories about England being baddies on there. It’s front page after the match today had three stories about England on there - one about England not wearing their silver medals and another about Sports Direct printing World Cup winner t-shirts.

Genuine apologies if this sounds patronising, but you can’t really understand it until you’ve seen it first hand or when you only have my clumsy attempts at explaining it.

All of the sound Welsh people I know (the majority) find it embarrassing but, just as is the case everywhere, the average person on the street is a moron.

Anyway, I’ve now got the Villa result to compound my depression!

I'm half-Welsh, so see both sides to it.  In both instances (Villa/Blues and England/Wales) it's the traditionally stronger side who feels the other are "obsessed" - and there's certainly some truth in this.  I would say that Wales fans care more about what happens to England than England fans care about what happens to Wales.

That said, and particularly with rugby, it's absolutely the arrogance of the English rugby collective that gets people's backs up.  Somehow it isn't the same with football nationally - the belief of England fans isn't that they're going to win the World Cup, for example.  Even when given an easy route last time out, there was a whole load of tongue-in-cheek "it's coming home" stuff without a real belief that it will happen.  Rugby is different.  England and their fans have an expectation of victory.

Ultimately, I think that's what happened this year.  England had beaten the All Blacks - therefore, job done, they're going to win the World Cup.  You had that sort of belief yourself from an earlier post.  Warren Gatland happened to sum it up well.  England had, mentally, played their final and that has cost them.  There will have been a fair few chuckles from those based in Wales (and probably Scotland) at the result, therefore.

[villa4europe]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

Ultimately, I think that's what happened this year.  England had beaten the All Blacks - therefore, job done, they're going to win the World Cup.  You had that sort of belief yourself from an earlier post.  Warren Gatland happened to sum it up well.  England had, mentally, played their final and that has cost them.  There will have been a fair few chuckles from those based in Wales (and probably Scotland) at the result, therefore.

that's not an English rugby thing, that's a world sport thing, you could even argue with "after the lord mayors show" its a generic thing in every day life

im sure eddie jones spent every day last week trying to stop it too, that's where I don't get the arrogance, I would say England were favourites to win but a lot of fans thought they would dip after the excellent NZ showing (maybe not dip that bad though)

[JB]

2 hours ago, bobzy said:

I'm half-Welsh, so see both sides to it.  In both instances (Villa/Blues and England/Wales) it's the traditionally stronger side who feels the other are "obsessed" - and there's certainly some truth in this.  I would say that Wales fans care more about what happens to England than England fans care about what happens to Wales.

That said, and particularly with rugby, it's absolutely the arrogance of the English rugby collective that gets people's backs up.  Somehow it isn't the same with football nationally - the belief of England fans isn't that they're going to win the World Cup, for example.  Even when given an easy route last time out, there was a whole load of tongue-in-cheek "it's coming home" stuff without a real belief that it will happen.  Rugby is different.  England and their fans have an expectation of victory.

Ultimately, I think that's what happened this year.  England had beaten the All Blacks - therefore, job done, they're going to win the World Cup.  You had that sort of belief yourself from an earlier post.  Warren Gatland happened to sum it up well.  England had, mentally, played their final and that has cost them.  There will have been a fair few chuckles from those based in Wales (and probably Scotland) at the result, therefore.

That’s a good post. I thinks it’s a really interesting discussion so thanks for not being an arse about it . That said, there are a few things I would take issue with.

I think Villa/SHA is a good analogy but England aren’t the stronger side in the overwhelming way that Villa are. If anything, Wales are based on achievements over the past 12 years. There have been countless games between the two in that time where England have gone in as underdogs and all I’ve heard from the Welsh media and fans is how they’re going to ‘smash’ us.

It seems that whenever you ask someone about their hatred for the English it always comes back to arrogance. I think the idea of arrogance of the English rugby collective is overblown. I think it’s a stereotype and it’s a case of if you look for it hard enough you will find it, which an element of the Welsh support certainly do. I would say that the English are no more arrogant than the Welsh. It’s impossible to measure and highly subjective and we’re always likely to see it more in our opposition.

I posted a picture earlier in the thread before Wales’s semi final where there was a headline story about how Wales were going to beat England in the final, underneath of which was an article about the arrogance of the English media. That would’ve gone viral if it was the other way around. I think using the media as a barometer of public feeling is always a terrible idea.

England were largely in the doldrums post-2003. I’d argue that expectations have never been particularly high during that time.

You’ve used my post earlier in this thread where I said that I had a feeling we would win  the final as an example. I’ve found that a lot - as an England supporter it seems as if you are not allowed to have any sort of confidence without it being labelled as arrogance. It was merely my prediction based on what I’d seen throughout the tournament. It turns out that it was spectacularly wrong - but did I not also suggest that I was having doubts? And in an even earlier post, I predicted that we would most likely lose to the All Blacks. Do I have to flat out predict we’re going to lose otherwise it’s arrogance? 

It seems that what Welsh supporters label as self belief when it comes to their own team (which they are not short of), is obnoxious arrogance when it comes to England. I find that quite often English words and actions are twisted to find the most negative meaning behind anything that is said or done. As an example, Farrell’s ‘smirk’ - arrogance or self-belief/relishing the challenge? We both know that if that had been AWJ he’d have been universally labelled as a legend.

If the English did half the stuff that the Welsh do there would be an absolute shitstorm. I’ve watched England games in bars in Cardiff and heard some horrendous shit. I’ve also experienced some pretty shitty stuff that’s nothing to do with rugby but that’s not for this thread. 

That the English are more arrogant than any of the other nations really doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. 

[BOF]

3 hours ago, bobzy said:

There will have been a fair few chuckles from those based in Wales (and probably Scotland) at the result, therefore.

[Xela]

Least we can all chuckle at Scotland.

We'll be all friends come the next Lions tour. 

[Johnnyp]

2 hours ago, JB said:

That’s a good post. I thinks it’s a really interesting discussion so thanks for not being an arse about it . That said, there are a few things I would take issue with.

I think Villa/SHA is a good analogy but England aren’t the stronger side in the overwhelming way that Villa are. If anything, Wales are based on achievements over the past 12 years. There have been countless games between the two in that time where England have gone in as underdogs and all I’ve heard from the Welsh media and fans is how they’re going to ‘smash’ us.

It seems that whenever you ask someone about their hatred for the English it always comes back to arrogance. I think the idea of arrogance of the English rugby collective is overblown. I think it’s a stereotype and it’s a case of if you look for it hard enough you will find it, which an element of the Welsh support certainly do. I would say that the English are no more arrogant than the Welsh. It’s impossible to measure and highly subjective and we’re always likely to see it more in our opposition.

I posted a picture earlier in the thread before Wales’s semi final where there was a headline story about how Wales were going to beat England in the final, underneath of which was an article about the arrogance of the English media. That would’ve gone viral if it was the other way around. I think using the media as a barometer of public feeling is always a terrible idea.

England were largely in the doldrums post-2003. I’d argue that expectations have never been particularly high during that time.

You’ve used my post earlier in this thread where I said that I had a feeling we would win  the final as an example. I’ve found that a lot - as an England supporter it seems as if you are not allowed to have any sort of confidence without it being labelled as arrogance. It was merely my prediction based on what I’d seen throughout the tournament. It turns out that it was spectacularly wrong - but did I not also suggest that I was having doubts? And in an even earlier post, I predicted that we would most likely lose to the All Blacks. Do I have to flat out predict we’re going to lose otherwise it’s arrogance? 

It seems that what Welsh supporters label as self belief when it comes to their own team (which they are not short of), is obnoxious arrogance when it comes to England. I find that quite often English words and actions are twisted to find the most negative meaning behind anything that is said or done. As an example, Farrell’s ‘smirk’ - arrogance or self-belief/relishing the challenge? We both know that if that had been AWJ he’d have been universally labelled as a legend.

If the English did half the stuff that the Welsh do there would be an absolute shitstorm. I’ve watched England games in bars in Cardiff and heard some horrendous shit. I’ve also experienced some pretty shitty stuff that’s nothing to do with rugby but that’s not for this thread. 

That the English are more arrogant than any of the other nations really doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. 

I've always found Welsh rugby people to be the most arrogant rugby folk you can come across. View themselves as the aristocrats of the game. The northern hemisphere's New Zealand. In their heads.

[chrisp65]

 

(actually, I think its my dislike of all rugby that is clouding my judgement here)

Edited November 4, 2019 by chrisp65
Self censor

[Wainy316]

Funny how ‘arrogance’ is also one of the arguments our West Midlands underlings use against Villa too.

[choffer]

17 hours ago, Xela said:

Least we can all chuckle at Scotland.

We'll be all friends come the next Lions tour. 

Aye, because like last time, there'll be hardly any Scots picked in the squad.

[bobzy]

21 hours ago, JB said:

I think Villa/SHA is a good analogy but England aren’t the stronger side in the overwhelming way that Villa are. If anything, Wales are based on achievements over the past 12 years. There have been countless games between the two in that time where England have gone in as underdogs and all I’ve heard from the Welsh media and fans is how they’re going to ‘smash’ us.

It seems that whenever you ask someone about their hatred for the English it always comes back to arrogance. I think the idea of arrogance of the English rugby collective is overblown. I think it’s a stereotype and it’s a case of if you look for it hard enough you will find it, which an element of the Welsh support certainly do. I would say that the English are no more arrogant than the Welsh. It’s impossible to measure and highly subjective and we’re always likely to see it more in our opposition.

I posted a picture earlier in the thread before Wales’s semi final where there was a headline story about how Wales were going to beat England in the final, underneath of which was an article about the arrogance of the English media. That would’ve gone viral if it was the other way around. I think using the media as a barometer of public feeling is always a terrible idea.

England were largely in the doldrums post-2003. I’d argue that expectations have never been particularly high during that time.

You’ve used my post earlier in this thread where I said that I had a feeling we would win  the final as an example. I’ve found that a lot - as an England supporter it seems as if you are not allowed to have any sort of confidence without it being labelled as arrogance. It was merely my prediction based on what I’d seen throughout the tournament. It turns out that it was spectacularly wrong - but did I not also suggest that I was having doubts? And in an even earlier post, I predicted that we would most likely lose to the All Blacks. Do I have to flat out predict we’re going to lose otherwise it’s arrogance? 

It seems that what Welsh supporters label as self belief when it comes to their own team (which they are not short of), is obnoxious arrogance when it comes to England. I find that quite often English words and actions are twisted to find the most negative meaning behind anything that is said or done. As an example, Farrell’s ‘smirk’ - arrogance or self-belief/relishing the challenge? We both know that if that had been AWJ he’d have been universally labelled as a legend.

If the English did half the stuff that the Welsh do there would be an absolute shitstorm. I’ve watched England games in bars in Cardiff and heard some horrendous shit. I’ve also experienced some pretty shitty stuff that’s nothing to do with rugby but that’s not for this thread. 

That the English are more arrogant than any of the other nations really doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. 

Bold 1:  Traditionally, they are though.  I'd imagine England were more favoured to win the World Cup than Wales too (not sure on this, not a massive rugby fan).

Bold 2:  Right.  So others see it, but England fans don't see it themselves?   It's a stereotype but England fans don't think it should be?  Interesting

Bold 3:  Nah, confidence is fine.  But when you have a stereo-typically arrogant fan base being confident in an outcome, it becomes seen as the latter.  I'm not saying that you are arrogant, but when lots and lots of little bits get added together, it becomes a bigger whole.  As an example, I saw some rugby-mad friends posting things on Facebook such as a group of journalists all huddled around a "England vs. New Zealand" desk whereas the "Wales vs. South Africa" desk was empty.  The bigger tie.  The more important sides involved.  etc etc.  It all adds up, whether you like it or not.

Bold 4:  Yes, agreed.  The hatred is far greater from Wales toward England than the other way round.  That isn't centred around rugby - it's a general thing.  There's a good amount of self-depricating in the Welsh (I follow Newport County, there's a lot of "We know what we are, we know we arrrrre - sheep shagging bastards, we know what we are" chants etc.) but also a undercurrent of "little brother", not good enough syndrome so beating England is a big deal be it in sport or otherwise, sadly.

[JB]

3 hours ago, bobzy said:

Traditionally, they are though.  I'd imagine England were more favoured to win the World Cup than Wales too (not sure on this, not a massive rugby fan).

I’m not sure what the odds were but Wales were 6 Nations champions and ranked above England. They’d developed such a knack of winning tight games that they were pretty well-fancied. 

3 hours ago, bobzy said:

Right.  So others see it, but England fans don't see it themselves?   It's a stereotype but England fans don't think it should be?  Interesting

Ah that’s not quite what I said . I said that the idea of England fans being arrogant is exaggerated. Like most stereotypes, there’s an element of truth (plenty of rah-rah types follow the ‘rugger’) but because of it, I think things get twisted or highlighted in a way that they wouldn’t with other nations.

My point was that when viewed objectively, I’d be pretty confident in saying that the English aren’t any more or less arrogant than fans of countries of similar or greater success levels.

Maybe I’m just being naturally defensive and I’m blind to it but I’ve never seen any evidence of English arrogance that I haven’t seen from other nations. The idea was formed a bit before my time so I’m open to the possibility that there was more of a basis for it before the sport became a bit more diverse.

3 hours ago, bobzy said:

Yes, agreed.  The hatred is far greater from Wales toward England than the other way round.  That isn't centred around rugby - it's a general thing.  There's a good amount of self-depricating in the Welsh (I follow Newport County, there's a lot of "We know what we are, we know we arrrrre - sheep shagging bastards, we know what we are" chants etc.) but also a undercurrent of "little brother", not good enough syndrome so beating England is a big deal be it in sport or otherwise, sadly.

I’d agree about the self-deprecation from many of the Welsh fans. I’ve had plenty of great times watching international rugby in Wales with Welsh friends and my father/brothers-in-law.

I’ve been called an English word removed for no reason but I’ve also been bought a pint by guys I’ve got chatting to during a game.