Ratings & Reactions: Villa v Bournemouth

[MikeAVFC]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

thanks for the uplifting information.....I have a rope, must find a bridge.

It was only to highlight that we need to give the team and manager time and have a lot of improvement to do and hopefully we learn from disappointing results like this. 

[Keener window-cleaner]

Plenty of positives despite the loss, 9 out of 10 times we would have won that. Bournmouth is a rival to us and we dominated them fully. Luck was on their side this time. 

[VillaFaninLondon]

Just watched the highlights and the frustrating thing about today is the goals we gave away. On another day we'd have won comfortably today and be talking about our first win back in the top flight, instead we're frustrated again due to silly mistakes that we need to cut out before we get punished many, many more times. 

 

Not really sure what Heaton is doing for the first goal, Wilson is going away from goal and even if he keeps it in and cuts back on to his right foot we have plenty of cover to avoid them scoring. The second goal is just plain stupid from Douglas Luiz, he's tried dummying it when no Villa player is behind him. Even so, you wouldn't expect us to be in trouble when Wilson picks it up, he hits a shot which if not deflected Heaton gathers comfortably, but then the ball not only deflects but goes in off the post. Seriously hard luck on our part. 

 

We were better than Bournemouth on pretty much every stat today except the most important: the goals scored. We had more shots, more possession, more corners, won more free kicks, and genuinely looked like the much superior side. So you would think we don't have too much to worry about given that, but I have a number of worries: we look like we're going to leak too many goals (5 in 2 already), don't have a reliable goalscorer, Grealish has looked out of his depth only 2 games in (20 games lost in a row now), and the only player who has really good for us is McGinn. 

 

I do feel we have enough quality to stay up but we really need to start proving ourselves in this league before we get sucked right in at the bottom and start to lose confidence. Everton at home will be another sell out and an even tougher game than today, but we could really, really do with getting a win from that before we can regroup for the international break. We certainly have to be a lot more savvy than today and stop gifting the opposition goals. 

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, Brumerican said:

Trezeguet may be more talented than Jota and Elmo might be a little better defensively than Guilbert but the combo of Guilbert and Jota would benefit the team a lot more due to how they play together .   Jota knew he always had Guilbert on the overlap as an option and that in itself creates more uncertainty and less time for centre halves to react .    If they are watching the ball with their backs turned to Wes then he will find a bit more space in dangerous areas. Guilbert and Targett's delivery is also considerably better too.

If we play with conservative full backs , a lone target man and inside forwards who consistently allow the oppositions back four to play facing the field then we are going to struggle massively.

I think Trezeguet and Elmohamady are our best combination on either flank. Jota for me isn't a winger, he's a good back up for Grealish, but on the flanks he's always headed inside. Trezeguet and Elmo clearly have some sort of understanding from the national team and it gives Elmohamady the chance to get forward - he's put in more crosses than any other Villa player so far this season - I'm not an Elmohamady fan, he's far from a favourite of mine, I think he's defensively suspect, but I don't think you can fault him on attacking intent in the opening couple of games - I think he's been very good.

I like Guilbert, he looked excellent in pre-season, he's quick, mobile and very much a player that wants to get forward. I think in time he'll get an opportunity to prove that and if he's the player we both hope he is, I think he'll make a fair run on the position. 

I'd say Elmohamady has been amongst our three or four best players this season and I don't say that easily, I've historically branded him a safety first coward and a liability who hides defensively, refusing responsibility, This season, he's been very good in support of Trezeguet and he's more than deserving of the shirt in my opinion. It's not sentimentality to pick a player who is doing a job very well.

Guilbert & Trezeguet could work - in fact it could work very well, but I don't think we need to break a paring that's working very well to find out - if things change in terms of their form, or if we get an opportunity to try something different (like in the league cup) then great, but right now - it ain't anything like broke.

On the other side, El Ghazi troubles me a little - there's been none of that strong running directness that we saw lat season - whether this league is smarter, whether there's less space, or whether it's just athletically more challenging I don't know - but he's not been able to make a mark yet. I think Taylor has done a very good job of providing some defensive stability behind him and getting forward occasionally when he feels the chance is there - with a less than firing El Ghazi in front of you, you need to be cautious. Cautious suits Taylor - it allows him to play within his limitations. I'd like more out left, but I'm not sure we can currently do that with El Ghazi as part of the two. 

Our lack of cover on the wings is a problem. We could put Trezeguet on the left, but we don't have a natural right winger to cover, and we don't have a natural left winger who can step in. I had a think about our league cup team today and you can replace nine of the eleven, like-for-like - but you can't replace either winger easily. 

In a nutshell: On the right, I'd continue with Trezeguet & Elmohamady; it's working very well and Elmohamady has been surprisingly good in an adventurous role. On the left, I just don't know - Taylor and El Ghazi might be our combination right now, but I don't think that one is working quite as well. 

I think at some point our lack of wingers means we'll need to change our shape - that will be a challenge for Smith. It'll be interesting to watch.

 

 

[Brumerican]

44 minutes ago, Awol said:

I think that’s right, but Jota has (imo) a great touch & footballing brain. He’s also (from pre-season) the player most likely to get Wesley scoring. 

Dropping him into a central attacking   role, where he can pull the strings without relying on pace, might work pretty well & allow him to release teammates who can run. 

Oh absolutely . My only knock against Jota was pace on the ball.  

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'm not I understand you TRO - I can understand dropping both wingers for a narrow 4-2-3-1 like (I think) AWOL suggested earlier in this thread - but when you say keep one winger, are you moving Grealish out to the flank to balance that, or moving McGinn out to the flank to balance that? I'm not sure what you're replacing the missing winger with, or how you're covering the flank.

 

Its how 4-2-3-1 teams line up......The midfield becomes a 5  in a diamond with the one dedicated winger would go out wide , two in the middle and a DM  at the bottom of the diamond and Jack Possibly at the top of the diamond.....I think its how Derby beat Leeds last season in the play offs.

Alternatively you could play 4-3-3 with one winger( trez) again and an inside forward( Jack) and a centre forward.......much in the old days with Morley,Shaw & withe.....We played that with no imbalance and Morley would roam from wing to wing at his discretion.....Mortimer, Cowans and Bremner would marshall the middle.....But we had great full backs in those days of course who would raid the flanks too....Gidman, Swain, Gibson, Williams ,etc

My overall point is....unless you have wingers who are constantly pinning back the opposition with their tenacious play, they can easily, inadvertently become passengers, this is not easy to spot because everyone runs, but its about effectiveness. If Deadly crosses are raining in or Full backs being left for dead was the case, I would think again, but its not happening.

Alf Ramsey as you know was not convinced about wingers, I am not going that far, but when you have 2 in a team just finding its feet in this division, it might seem a bit ambitious to me.

Anyway, Its just options......I don't want to see us losing every game.

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by TRO

[villaluke]

3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

We have much to learn.

Lesson number one from this one - in this league you have to take your chances, We were the better side, we had 22 shots on goal, Trezeguet should have scored twice, Grealish had a simple header, Wesley could have had one, Taylor had a good chance and we created umpteen half chances - Bournemouth were clinical. 

I thought Heaton's decision to dive at the ball in the opening minute might have been a little rash, I'd need to see that one again. Luiz's mistake for the second was foolish - that's all they needed.

Beyond those two moments, the centre backs looked reasonably solid against two quick, physical strikers, the two fullbacks played well and deserve their places right now, Luiz has a poor first half, but was playing much better in the second, even before he banged in his superb strike, Mcginn was industrious as ever and maybe should have done better with the chance he hit straight at the keeper - but - El Ghazi isn't having a big impact on games thus far and Grealish has given the ball away more often in the last two games than in any other game I remember seeing in his career - he's maybe in need of a bit of a reality check - Wesley did some good things today, but you don't get the feeling he's always on the edge of a goal - we're toothless in many ways - Grealish, McGinn, Trezeguet and co might get five or six each this season - that's not going to be enough and much of our hopes will rest on the big man's shoulders - we need more of the good stuff.

With all that, we played well, we were the better team - undone by some knowhow in terms of being clinical and what the BBC called being "streetwise" but you and I would know as cheating. I thought some of Bournemouth's antics were disappointing to say the least. The diving by Bournemouth was horrific - now I'm not putting on my holier-than-though robes here, we're more than capable of turning a challenge into a free kick - but I don't think I've ever seen a team so often have a player run into a defender, thirty or forty yards off the ball and go down. They had 172 players go down injured in the ninety minutes* - and each of them seemed happy to stay down - Wilson appeared to be stung by a wasp on a number of occasions. Billings should have gone in the first half for one of the four fouls he committed after his yellow - and Martin Atkinson was the usual dickhead we've come to know and abhor. The thing with that is, we do know and Bournemouth will have known that too - and Bournemouth played Martin Atkinson a whole lot better than we did. Lesson two - learn to use the referee.

I'm caught in two minds:

On the one hand, we've played well, we were better than Bournemouth despite the result and if we learn some of these lessons quickly, we'll be fine. We were better in the second half than the first and this is a team getting used to each other. There's some talent - I thought Trezeguet showed some real promise and Luiz could become an excellent footballer. There are some good signs if we can find that little bit of sharpness and edge.

On the other hand, we've had good spells in two games and got no points, we host the seventh best team in the country on Friday, followed by a really difficult trip to Crystal Palace who are very good at home - no points from four games is a very real possibility - and if it happens, everything will seem more difficult and bleak.

I think there's probably something in both - I'll be hoping for a point or two from our next couple of games - and preaching patience if they aren't there.

Also, and I realise it's uncharitable on the back of a defeat, but the sooner this tinpot town and it's arseheap, flouncing team run out of Russian money and piss off back to league 1 the better. It's not a small town fairytale, it's a seaside petrochemical vanity project with a ground smaller than the Holte End. Bah humbug.

 

*I made this number up.

sorry if im wrong but think palace had one of the worst home records last season if not the worst, think they were much better away from home.

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, MikeAVFC said:

It was only to highlight that we need to give the team and manager time and have a lot of improvement to do and hopefully we learn from disappointing results like this. 

just teasing.

[IrishVillain]

The outright lack of objectivity from the majority of the posters on here is astounding. 

So many people claiming we'll "struggle for goals", "need another striker", etc. If Trez had pulled back that simple ball for Wes early on against Spurs instead of barreling on with his head down and shooting into two defenders we would likely have been 2-0 up, Big Wes would have got off the mark, and we probably would have got something from the game. Small things like that change the complexion completely. In this reality we're bemoaning impotency up front after he has a a relatively quiet few  games (not unheard of for hold-up front men who will only see a few chances per game) whereas in the alternate reality we praise Wes for finding space in the box and a tidy finish that won us a huge three points vs spurs, and forgive him a somewhat quiet 90 today. 

Have some perspective guys, it's early doors, and the variance will even itself out in the long run.

[peterms]

4 hours ago, Awol said:

I have no idea how Bournemouth started the 2nd half with eleven men. 

Scandalous.  Something fishy about it.  #BillingsGate

[OutByEaster?]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its how 4-2-3-1 teams line up......The midfield becomes a 5  in a diamond with the one dedicated winger would go out wide , two in the middle and a DM  at the bottom of the diamond and Jack Possibly at the top of the diamond.....I think its how Derby beat Leeds last season in the play offs

A sort of 4-2-2-winger-1? I can sort of see how you mean with Wesley playing as an out and out striker and one winger (Trezeguet) given a free role around him.

I'm coming round to the 4-2-3-1 with Jota, McGinn and Grealish in front of two holding midfielders and two fullbacks providing the wing play - it's almost a 2-2-5-1 when you have the ball. I think that's what AWOL was getting at. I'm also not against us trying a similar thing with a 5-1-3-1 with an extra CB instead of a second holding midfielder. 

Quote

Alternatively you could play 4-3-3 with one winger( trez) again and an inside forward( Jack) and a centre forward.......much in the old days with Morley,Shaw & withe.....We played that with no imbalance and Morley would roam from wing to wing at his discretion.....Mortimer, Cowans and Bremner would marshall the middle.

I'm not overly keen on pushing Grealish forward into a support striker role - I think he needs to be able to keep coming deep to get the ball, he thrives on involvement. For me, he'd need to be the Cowans in that formation - the only player I think we have that can sort of do the Shaw role in that regard would be O'Hare - and I don't want that.

I think we're struggling with the same problem - we have one effective flank and one ineffective flank - plan A would be for El Ghazi to start playing a whole lot better.

[barry'sboots]

4 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

Better team in a PL game for 60 minutes. Moment of madness by Heaton, lucky deflection and a shit ref. 

Honestly dont understand what some of you watched and are expecting. 

Couldn't agree more.

For the second game running we have been denied an advantage by poor refereeing - Davison Sanchez's foul for a pen that could have made it 2-0 v Spurs and Billings staying on the pitch when he should have gone for the foul on Jack, let alone the two subsequent fouls!

Heaton was good apart from his moment of madness.  Have to get Guilbert and Targett in as Elmo and Taylor offer little in possession.  Mings and Engel continued where they left off v Spurs.  CM three not quite gelling but need to play games together.  Not convinced by any of the wide options currently.  I think there was a definite improvement in Wes - he stood up most of the game!!

I would go with a diamond v Everton with the attacking full backs, CH at 10 behind Davis & Wes.  I know DS won't!!

[TRO]

16 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think Trezeguet and Elmohamady are our best combination on either flank. Jota for me isn't a winger, he's a good back up for Grealish, but on the flanks he's always headed inside. Trezeguet and Elmo clearly have some sort of understanding from the national team and it gives Elmohamady the chance to get forward - he's put in more crosses than any other Villa player so far this season - I'm not an Elmohamady fan, he's far from a favourite of mine, I think he's defensively suspect, but I don't think you can fault him on attacking intent in the opening couple of games - I think he's been very good.

I like Guilbert, he looked excellent in pre-season, he's quick, mobile and very much a player that wants to get forward. I think in time he'll get an opportunity to prove that and if he's the player we both hope he is, I think he'll make a fair run on the position. 

I'd say Elmohamady has been amongst our three or four best players this season and I don't say that easily, I've historically branded him a safety first coward and a liability who hides defensively, refusing responsibility, This season, he's been very good in support of Trezeguet and he's more than deserving of the shirt in my opinion. It's not sentimentality to pick a player who is doing a job very well.

Guilbert & Trezeguet could work - in fact it could work very well, but I don't think we need to break a paring that's working very well to find out - if things change in terms of their form, or if we get an opportunity to try something different (like in the league cup) then great, but right now - it ain't anything like broke.

On the other side, El Ghazi troubles me a little - there's been none of that strong running directness that we saw lat season - whether this league is smarter, whether there's less space, or whether it's just athletically more challenging I don't know - but he's not been able to make a mark yet. I think Taylor has done a very good job of providing some defensive stability behind him and getting forward occasionally when he feels the chance is there - with a less than firing El Ghazi in front of you, you need to be cautious. Cautious suits Taylor - it allows him to play within his limitations. I'd like more out left, but I'm not sure we can currently do that with El Ghazi as part of the two. 

Our lack of cover on the wings is a problem. We could put Trezeguet on the left, but we don't have a natural right winger to cover, and we don't have a natural left winger who can step in. I had a think about our league cup team today and you can replace nine of the eleven, like-for-like - but you can't replace either winger easily. 

In a nutshell: On the right, I'd continue with Trezeguet & Elmohamady; it's working very well and Elmohamady has been surprisingly good in an adventurous role. On the left, I just don't know - Taylor and El Ghazi might be our combination right now, but I don't think that one is working quite as well. 

I think at some point our lack of wingers means we'll need to change our shape - that will be a challenge for Smith. It'll be interesting to watch.

 

 

I thought we was weak on the flanks last season and still think we are.....we are now talking about 4 players from the 10, nearly half the team.....Presently I am not sure we are strong enough, sorry.

I feel the full backs should overlap more and interact with the wingers much more seamlessly.....not the odd run,but consistently.......What I see is a sort of relay race, where the baton is handed from the full back to the winger and its so, predictable to the opposition, everything is telegraphed, no surprise or creativity, hence we get closed down so easily and regularly.....The play is not forthright, its indecisive and tentative...we get easily picked off playing like that.

Edited August 18, 2019 by TRO

[KenjiOgiwara]

25 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think Trezeguet and Elmohamady are our best combination on either flank. Jota for me isn't a winger, he's a good back up for Grealish, but on the flanks he's always headed inside. 

To be fair this goes for all our wingers. I lost count today watching Taylor getting the ball trying to play it wide and both Grealish and our winger cut inside so he had to pass it backwards 

Edited August 17, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, TRO said:

I thought we was weak on the flanks last season and still think we are.....we are now talking about 4 players from the 10, nearly half the team.....Presently I am not sure we are strong enough, sorry.

No need to apologise there, I feel exactly the same! Our strengths are through the middle - but our play needs the flanks. It's a concern. I think Trezeguet will make a difference, but I think we have problems with wingers.

Quote

I feel the full backs should overlap more and interact with the wingers much more seamlessly.....not the odd run, consistently.

That's exactly what I'm seeing with Elmohamady at the moment, he spent a whole lot of time in the opposition corner of the pitch today.

Taylor doesn't do anything like as much of that, but for me he's been solid. For me the problem right now isn't the fullbacks - if you'd told me before the season started that it'd be these two, I'd have thought it would be (and I'd have thought you were nuts) - but they've been pretty good.

Our problem at the moment is that one of our wingers isn't playing well. That's in a way to be expected - wingers often have spells of sparkling form and spells when they're quiet - that's why it's important to have good back ups - we've got an attacking central midfielder and Jonathon Kodjia. 

I'd suggest a double fullback combo - y'know Guilbert and Elmo or Targett and Taylor - but it makes me feel bad inside.

 

 

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

15 minutes ago, villaluke said:

sorry if im wrong but think palace had one of the worst home records last season if not the worst, think they were much better away from home.

This post is the equivalent of the scene in a black and white movie where the hero grabs the blonde by the shoulders, slaps her face and gives her a good shake to make her calm down.

Thank you.

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, IrishVillain said:

The outright lack of objectivity from the majority of the posters on here is astounding. 

So many people claiming we'll "struggle for goals", "need another striker", etc. If Trez had pulled back that simple ball for Wes early on against Spurs instead of barreling on with his head down and shooting into two defenders we would likely have been 2-0 up, Big Wes would have got off the mark, and we probably would have got something from the game. Small things like that change the complexion completely. In this reality we're bemoaning impotency up front after he has a a relatively quiet few  games (not unheard of for hold-up front men who will only see a few chances per game) whereas in the alternate reality we praise Wes for finding space in the box and a tidy finish that won us a huge three points vs spurs, and forgive him a somewhat quiet 90 today. 

Have some perspective guys, it's early doors, and the variance will even itself out in the long run.

Of course we hope you are right, we all do.....but bear in mind, we know what you are saying, I seen Ken McNaught play 20 shite games and then become a legend.....I have also waited, waited and waited for players and no show. ...but If my auntie had balls she would be my uncle.

All games, get ifs......IF there was no VAR Man city would have won today.

What we are debating is what we have seen, not what we are going to see, if your predictions and our hopes come true.

so far,I would say much work to do.....over to you Dean.

[barry'sboots]

1 hour ago, VillaChris said:

Also, and I realise it's uncharitable on the back of a defeat, but the sooner this tinpot town and it's arseheap, flouncing team run out of Russian money and piss off back to league 1 the better. It's not a small town fairytale, it's a seaside petrochemical vanity project with a ground smaller than the Holte End. Bah humbug.

That's the problem with the Premier League- the small teams, if well managed, can compete because, outside of the top 6, the budget is driven by the TV monies, and not the gate money or commercial revenues, and they get their fair share of this.  I think it was Savage who made this point last year and got crucified.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

No need to apologise there, I feel exactly the same! Our strengths are through the middle - but our play needs the flanks. It's a concern. I think Trezeguet will make a difference, but I think we have problems with wingers.

That's exactly what I'm seeing with Elmohamady at the moment, he spent a whole lot of time in the opposition corner of the pitch today.

Taylor doesn't do anything like as much of that, but for me he's been solid. For me the problem right now isn't the fullbacks - if you'd told me before the season started that it'd be these two, I'd have thought it would be (and I'd have thought you were nuts) - but they've been pretty good.

Our problem at the moment is that one of our wingers isn't playing well. That's in a way to be expected - wingers often have spells of sparkling form and spells when they're quiet - that's why it's important to have good back ups - we've got an attacking central midfielder and Jonathon Kodjia. 

I'd suggest a double fullback combo - y'know Guilbert and Elmo or Targett and Taylor - but it makes me feel bad inside.

 

 

 

 

I agree, Elmo does do more of the attacking......Taylor never had a bad game, but he is very cautious.

On leaving a fellow fan summed it up for me.........He said" We didn't play bad, but not well enough".

I still see instances where the brain needs to be engaged to take a pass in a better position, the decision making is some times suspect on our positional play......blimey how many crosses come in and don't reach anyones head, Engles should have scored at the death.

[Brumerican]

8 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

 

I'd say Elmohamady has been amongst our three or four best players this season and I don't say that easily, I've historically branded him a safety first coward and a liability who hides defensively, refusing responsibility, This season, he's been very good in support of Trezeguet and he's more than deserving of the shirt in my opinion. It's not sentimentality to pick a player who is doing a job very well.

 

This season ? 2 Games ?   Guilbert has shown more in preseason than Elmo has in his entire career . 

Chemistry with Trezeguet ? I lost count of how many times Elmo refused to overlap  or even be within 20ft of him on a counter and he was out of position quite a few times defensively .

Playing with 2 conservative fullbacks who specialise in killing momentum is going to murder us with the the way we set up.

I'm genuinely flabbergasted that anybody would think persisting with this will work out.  If we play Elmo and Taylor against Everton then we will be the same narrow , one dimensional team we have seen the last 2 games Jack will get swamped and Wes will be boxed out again. 

Nip it in the bud now and become the attacking team Smith wants to be or stay with the "safety first coward" option and say hello to 46 games again.

Elmo might be steady (I have never saw anything above that from him) but steady is not going to work unless we alter the formation that we spent all summer working on (successfully with Guilbert and Targett) 

Elmo and Taylor are the last lingering shadows of Steve Bruce IMO and unless we go back to how we set up in the summer then I can't see many points being won or Wesley getting enough chances created for him.  

If we are picking players based on "doing a job very well" then Guilbert should have never lost HIS place based on better performances in the Summer, albeit against lesser opponents bar Leipzig.