Loan Watch 2019/20

[HanoiVillan]

8 minutes ago, Hornso said:

Like a lot of our loan players (Doyle-Hayes, Hepburn-Murphy, O'Hare & Sarkic), by my research he's out of contract at the end of the season. Whilst I hope we re-sign a few of those players I think we're probably planning for 2020/21 without Andre on the books and subsequently aren't too fussed about his current situation. 

I doubt we'll see him play for us if we don't go down, but I would hope we do the right thing by him anyway.

[OutByEaster?]

If you're really bored and you don't mind people speaking strange languages, Livingston are live on BBC Alba at 18:00 so you can watch Sarkic on the BBC website today.

 

[siminjo]

It`s so frustrating that we always seem to have a bunch of really good prospects, only for them to never progress after the age of 17-19. I start to wonder why we don`t seem to be able to push them on the last stretch. Delfouneso, Weimann, Green, O`hare, Suliman, were all one time or another seen as the next big thing, and yet it hardly looks like anyone of them will ever be a PL regular. The last ten year we can only say to have produced two players of a noteworthy quality, Grealish and Albrighton. Hopefully that`s why we are now looking for a new u-23 coach. But am i mistaken in believing we just hired two people from West Brom as academy personnel?

[MaVilla]

32 minutes ago, siminjo said:

It`s so frustrating that we always seem to have a bunch of really good prospects, only for them to never progress after the age of 17-19. I start to wonder why we don`t seem to be able to push them on the last stretch. Delfouneso, Weimann, Green, O`hare, Suliman, were all one time or another seen as the next big thing, and yet it hardly looks like anyone of them will ever be a PL regular. The last ten year we can only say to have produced two players of a noteworthy quality, Grealish and Albrighton. Hopefully that`s why we are now looking for a new u-23 coach. But am i mistaken in believing we just hired two people from West Brom as academy personnel?

We have produced some really good players, but also granted we have failed to develop some players who looked like they might make it, but for whatever reason didn't, or went on to develop away from villa park.

We have hired WBAs old head of youth development, who apparently has an excellent reputation.

I think there are a number of factors and points, a lot of which I will probably miss, but here is my personal opinion.

1) we have over hyped some of our young players, we are then shocked they don't develop, but actually they weren't that good in the first place. (Moore brothers etc)

2) the fans can be prone to turning on players and not giving them space or time to develop, thus hindering their development, although this is probably true at most clubs.

3) the club itself have probably hindered some players development by not having a proper progression route and/or not developing them properly (poor or no loans, not integrating them in to the squad properly)

4) actually having some real gems, but the club making really poor decisions to sell, when they have actually made it elsewhere (Cahill, albrighton etc)

5) moving players on who may have made it with proper development (Bannan, Clark etc).

6) for all our failings we have actually developed some good youth (Barry, Grealish, gabby etc), but overall we have had ad amany hits as misses due to whatever reason that might be.

 

Sure there are many more possible points, but this reply is already long enough

[siminjo]

58 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

We have produced some really good players, but also granted we have failed to develop some players who looked like they might make it, but for whatever reason didn't, or went on to develop away from villa park.

We have hired WBAs old head of youth development, who apparently has an excellent reputation.

I think there are a number of factors and points, a lot of which I will probably miss, but here is my personal opinion.

1) we have over hyped some of our young players, we are then shocked they don't develop, but actually they weren't that good in the first place. (Moore brothers etc)

2) the fans can be prone to turning on players and not giving them space or time to develop, thus hindering their development, although this is probably true at most clubs.

3) the club itself have probably hindered some players development by not having a proper progression route and/or not developing them properly (poor or no loans, not integrating them in to the squad properly)

4) actually having some real gems, but the club making really poor decisions to sell, when they have actually made it elsewhere (Cahill, albrighton etc)

5) moving players on who may have made it with proper development (Bannan, Clark etc).

6) for all our failings we have actually developed some good youth (Barry, Grealish, gabby etc), but overall we have had ad amany hits as misses due to whatever reason that might be.

 

Sure there are many more possible points, but this reply is already long enough

My point was made with reference to the last 10 years, neither Gabby, Cahill or Barry fits in that description. And to some extent we may have overhyped them, but still many of them have been regulars at good performing england youth team, some even captains. Bannan and Clark are not PL regulars, though Clark has played roughly equal to 1 season worth of games over the last 3 seasons. 

I agree with the sentiment that some really poor decisions must have been made with regards to how to polish the rough youth products into pl ready players. I wonder if the mental aspects of our youth training, or indeed throughout the whole squad, has been up to scratch? It surely must have been a bad environment to be brought up to the senior squad the last 2-3 years we played in the PL, with the whole squad in such a poisonous mood. And also loan deals, with seemingly almost not a single loan deal being a good match for the outgoing players.

[HanoiVillan]

A lot of it comes from the reality that we've spent most of the past ten years battling to avoid being relegated from the PL. If every point counts, from every game, and most of the time you're up against better opposition, you just don't have the chance to blood youngsters the way the top teams do.

[cheltenham_villa]

Another chance to watch JDH at cheltenham yesterday, an improved performance on my last watch, particularly in the second half but a long way to go to make a prem team.

First half he played in central midfield with Rohan ince (big, quick, very mobile) and they ran the show. JDH was always an option, rarely having to make tackles, relying more on intercepting the ball and his quality stood out. He pushed the ball forwards quickly but you wouldnt see him taking on a man or two. Think Conor hourihane. He looked like a player from a prem club.

Second half he (along with the rest of the Cheltenham side) went missing. They dropped very deep, JDH struggled to get on the ball, caught in possession and stopped finding his passes.

Needs to find consistency, on two showings so far he looks like he has found his level. Hope to be proven wrong.

 

[Hornso]

Summary from the weekend - Hogan freed, Bree battered, O'Hare earns a replay.

Bree (Luton)
Away at Brentford (7-0) - Played 90 minutes. WhoScored.com rating of 5.52.

Doyle-Hayes (Cheltenham)
Home to Port Vale [FA Cup] (1-3) - Replaced after 82 minutes. (see post above for @cheltenham_villa's report).

Green (Preston)
Home to WBA (0-1) - Not in the squad. #FreeAndre

Hepburn-Murphy (Tranmere)
Home to Chichester City [FA Cup] (5-1) - Played 90 minutes. (Ex-Villan Corey Taylor scored a brace).

Hogan (Stoke)
Home to Blackburn (1-2) - Came on after 62 minutes. WhoScored.com rating of 6.26. Touch count - 8.

O'Hare (Coventry)
Home to Ipswich [FA Cup] (1-1) - Came on after 57 minutes. Scored late equaliser.

 

 

Sarkic (Livingston)
Home to Hamilton (0-0) - Played 90 minutes.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Hornso

[HanoiVillan]

When is Bree's contract up? He's pretty obviously never going to make the grade here.

[Hornso]

3 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

When is Bree's contract up? He's pretty obviously never going to make the grade here.

End of next season I believe.

[zab6359]

20 hours ago, siminjo said:

My point was made with reference to the last 10 years, neither Gabby, Cahill or Barry fits in that description. And to some extent we may have overhyped them, but still many of them have been regulars at good performing england youth team, some even captains. Bannan and Clark are not PL regulars, though Clark has played roughly equal to 1 season worth of games over the last 3 seasons. 

I agree with the sentiment that some really poor decisions must have been made with regards to how to polish the rough youth products into pl ready players. I wonder if the mental aspects of our youth training, or indeed throughout the whole squad, has been up to scratch? It surely must have been a bad environment to be brought up to the senior squad the last 2-3 years we played in the PL, with the whole squad in such a poisonous mood. And also loan deals, with seemingly almost not a single loan deal being a good match for the outgoing players.

I think you have to also look at the link between how well the academy and first team are doing, our first team went into free-fall after the 2010/11 season, I should imagine that decline affects the club as a whole. I guess funding to the academy will have been cut during the period in the Championship.

 

[rodders0223]

It's all Sir Gary Cahill's fault.

[sir_gary_cahill]

22 minutes ago, rodders0223 said:

It's all Sir Gary Cahill's fault.

Shift the blame

[MotoMkali]

If you look at the league as a whole and the good young players coming through they are almost always at a top 8 club. Occasionally you will get rare exceptions who are actually quality coming through at a lower half club like grealish.

The players at the top 8 aren't better they are just easier to put in the side for 1 or 2 games because they could play 10v11 against most teams in the league and still win. The reason why lingard seemed like he had so much potential and failed is the same he played for a big club so the game was easier for him, when asked to do anything he hadn't improved since he came through so he was shit. 

[Hornso]

Summary from Tuesday night - #O'HareOut

O'Hare (Coventry)
Away at MK Dons [EFL Trophy] (2-0) - Came off after 60 minutes.

[mallett]

Some of our youth players from the last 10 years have gone on to make it to the premier league. E.g. Callum Robinson, Enda Stevens, perhaps even Ciaran Clarke could be counted. Measured by that metric the problem might not have been just the youth team and over optimism by Sir Gary Cahill. However Villa haven’t been hoovering up all the best talent in the West Midlands ( Coventry - Maddison  etc. and West Brom) as much as perhaps we should do. I think that’s partly the reason for the changes. We also lost our brightest talent since Grealish to Arsenal where he totally failed to develop into the footballer he should have been. I don’t think the rules have been changed so that could well happen again if a youth player looks particularly outstanding.

Back on topic players who go onto to be great have often only had solid loan spells rather than ripping it up such as Grealish’s spell at Notts County. I think some of our current loaners are having a solid spell the question is whether they can kick on from there or even whether they will get the opportunity to at Villa.

[Hornso]

Summary from Tuesday night

Hepburn-Murphy (Tranmere)
Home to Manchester United U/21s [EFL Trophy] (3-2) - Came off after 47 minutes (stretchered off). Scored.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Hornso

[siminjo]

16 hours ago, mallett said:

Some of our youth players from the last 10 years have gone on to make it to the premier league. E.g. Callum Robinson, Enda Stevens, perhaps even Ciaran Clarke could be counted. Measured by that metric the problem might not have been just the youth team and over optimism by Sir Gary Cahill. However Villa haven’t been hoovering up all the best talent in the West Midlands ( Coventry - Maddison  etc. and West Brom) as much as perhaps we should do. I think that’s partly the reason for the changes. We also lost our brightest talent since Grealish to Arsenal where he totally failed to develop into the footballer he should have been. I don’t think the rules have been changed so that could well happen again if a youth player looks particularly outstanding.

Back on topic players who go onto to be great have often only had solid loan spells rather than ripping it up such as Grealish’s spell at Notts County. I think some of our current loaners are having a solid spell the question is whether they can kick on from there or even whether they will get the opportunity to at Villa.

Callum has 8 starts and 1 goal to show for in the premier league so it`s a big stretch to say he has made it in PL, Enda stevens was 21/22 when we bought him from Shamrock, so definetively not our youth product.

[VillaChris]

Yeah Andre green loan has been a real disaster. Thought PNE would be a good fit given they're high energy and Green does work hard even if his other abilities are open to question. Can't be any financial penalties in the agreement given his lack of minutes, loads of prem clubs are doing that now apparently with their younger players out on loan.

[Hornso]

Summary from the weekend

Bree (Luton)
Home to Wigan (2-1) - Played 90 minutes. WhoScored.com rating of 7.04.

Doyle-Hayes (Cheltenham)
Away at Mansfield (0-3) - Played 90 minutes. WhoScored.com rating of 7.69. Assist. Booked.

Green (Preston)
Away at QPR (2-0) - Not in the squad. #FreeAndre

Hepburn-Murphy (Tranmere)
Home to Accrington Stanley (1-1) - Came on after 89 minutes. WhoScored.com rating of 6.00.

Hogan (Stoke)
Away at Hull (2-1) - Not in the squad.

O'Hare (Coventry)
Home to Ipswich (1-1) - Played 90 minutes. WhoScored.com rating of 6.51. Shot hit the frame of the goal. 

Sarkic (Livingston)
Home to Kilmarnock (3-0) - Played 90 minutes.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Hornso