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21 minutes ago, terrytini said:

 

Anyway...I’m not trying to make a song and dance about it. 

 

You could have fooled me... 😉

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1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

You could have fooled me... 😉

That was me trying to be both brief and uncontroversial 😂

 

....And thanks for making me watch the worst ten minutes of the game five times ..😂

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20 minutes ago, terrytini said:

God knows I’ve no enthusiasm for disagreement, ( so please view this as nothing more than a small observation !) but...

Ill say  straight out ordinarily I wouldn’t comment on a guy who played 10 minutes.

But your comments perplexed me..

And especially since some were interested how he did I thought I’d chip in.

Because my opinion, at the game, was that for a DM he didn’t really do any DM ing. I didn’t mind, As like I said, what do you expect in 10 minutes.

And today was the first time I’ve properly analysed the game....and thought the same.

Then I read your Post and I thought “ jeez how did I miss all that ?”....so I’ve just watched his 10 minutes again.

Then I had to watch it again, while referring back to your observations, as I couldn’t see what you were referring to.

(I have to confess one of the reasons I rewatch games several times is I am pretty poor at any details, I’m more of an overall atmosphere person).....so it didn’t surprise me I missed it.

But the second ( and third ) rewatch meant I finally knew the bits you must have meant....but ( in my eyes/ opinion) they didn’t look like that to me.

The raking 40 yard pass, if I’ve got the right one ( there were only about 4 passes so I think I’m right) was (as I see it) a standard, no pressure on him, 20 metre pass out to the wing. About as run of the mill as it’s gets.

Then twice in a minute later on he picked the ball up in front of the Back 4 and made ( again in my view) very basic ( Whelan - esque) passes. 

I didn’t / don’t think there was anything good ( or bad) about any of them. Not arguing, just saying we see things differently.

He certainly looked comfortable on the ball, but then, I think they pretty much all do !

There WAS one moment of very nice skill when he brought a clearance down well and dinked a little side pass.

But what did stand out, for me, was his absence for the third, but especially the second, goal.

The third I pretty much go along with you saying Sissoko  was all but gone....but I reckon he had the chance to foul him.

The second though ? Jack loses the ball but there is a moment when a sharp DM could get a tackle in. Luiz doesn’t appear to try to.

Do I blame him, fault him, or whatever....absolutely not. First game, only 10 minutes, opposition rampant.

But it suggested to me he’s not ready ( up to speed ).At least for the defensive side. Which you raised yourself.

Anyway...I’m not trying to make a song and dance about it. 

 

What stood out for me in that short cameo was how naturally he made himself available and wanted the ball and how comfortable he was on the ball, even though it was most basic passes. In comparison my strongest critique of Hourihane is that he goes missing and doesn't show up making himself available for the ball when it gets tough. In those 10 mins Luiz did more than Hourihane did the whole second half when it came to contributing to our build up play, even though it wasn't much. Hourihane for me was at fault for us never keeping the ball or getting any possession at all the second half, this is where I think and hope Luiz will be a massive upgrade, with him we will be able to keep the ball and keep possession, not kick it away and spend the game chasing. It will also mean that Jack don't have to drop back and receive the ball (that is doing Hourihane's basic job) but can be further up the pitch, receiving the ball from Luiz and hurting the other teams.

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1 minute ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

What stood out for me in that short cameo was how naturally he made himself available and wanted the ball and how comfortable he was on the ball, even though it was most basic passes. In comparison my strongest critique of Hourihane is that he goes missing and doesn't show up making himself available for the ball when it gets tough. In those 10 mins Luiz did more than Hourihane did the whole second half when it came to contributing to our build up play, even though it wasn't much. Hourihane for me was at fault for us never keeping the ball or getting any possession at all the second half, this is where I think and hope Luiz will be a massive upgrade, with him we will be able to keep the ball and keep possession, not kick it away and spend the game chasing. It will also mean that Jack don't have to drop back and receive the ball (that is doing Hourihane's basic job) but can be further up the pitch, receiving the ball from Luiz and hurting the other teams.

Agree re CH going missing. Agree Luiz looks comfortable especially looking forward.

Decided against watching his cameo for a seventh time to double check.....

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I think because he’s so highly rated it’s easy to forget he’s just a kid. Both him and Wesley.  They will take time to settle and keep improving. 

Theres an image of Mings with his arm around  Luiz after the game which sort of showed how much these younger players still need protecting. 

Found it:

Tottenham25.ashx?mh=720&mw=1280&vs=1&d=2

Edited by Vive_La_Villa
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22 hours ago, skarroki said:

I like him because of his throwback hair. You just don't get footballers with that hairstyle anymore. A jay-jay okocha, Abel Xavier hybrid, reborn. 

Taribo West used to colour his braids in line with the team he was playing for - so turned up at Middlesborough with them in red, and Nigeria in green. Luiz knows what to do....

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Personally I haven’t been this excited  by a DM since Matthieu Berson. I seem to remember he also had quite a following on Villatalk.

Will Douglas reach such heights?

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I'm really exited about this kid, highly rated by Guardiola and rumour of a buy-back clause? Don't know if there is any truth in that.

Get him match fit and I'm hoping he's a huge success in a position we are definitely going to need to be strong in this season. 

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34 minutes ago, zab6359 said:

a buy-back clause? Don't know if there is any truth in that.

It is truth in that.

But on the bright side. If they do decide to buy him it will be because Luiz has done really well for us.

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16 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

What stood out for me in that short cameo was how naturally he made himself available and wanted the ball and how comfortable he was on the ball, even though it was most basic passes. In comparison my strongest critique of Hourihane is that he goes missing and doesn't show up making himself available for the ball when it gets tough. In those 10 mins Luiz did more than Hourihane did the whole second half when it came to contributing to our build up play, even though it wasn't much. Hourihane for me was at fault for us never keeping the ball or getting any possession at all the second half, this is where I think and hope Luiz will be a massive upgrade, with him we will be able to keep the ball and keep possession, not kick it away and spend the game chasing. It will also mean that Jack don't have to drop back and receive the ball (that is doing Hourihane's basic job) but can be further up the pitch, receiving the ball from Luiz and hurting the other teams.

I disagree with a few parts of this. Hourihane made himself available for the ball whenever he could, his touches and passes stats back this up, the thing is when you are under the pump tracking players from here there and everywhere you aren't always going to be in a position to receive the ball. There was also a definite ploy to get the ball out to our full backs in the second half where it's less dangerous against the Spurs press, so in many ways the ball was bypassing him rather than the other way around.

I don't get why Hourihane is the one to blame for us not keeping possession? He was dispossessed once and had an 88% pass completion for the game. I get that people are frustrated that we couldn't get out, but I don't see the benefit of piling in on one player when the evidence suggests he's no more culpable than the rest of the team.

Jack didn't play so deep because of anything to do with Hourihane, the entire team were forced back by a dominant Spurs midfield. Jack likes to be on the ball, and when we don't have much possession he goes looking for it, that doesn't automatically mean the defensive midfielder is having a bad game, he'll likely do it when Luiz plays as well.

Luiz came on after the first goal, at which point Spurs dropped off a little to draw us out, so he had a little more room and less pressure to work with, and against tired players when he's fresh. It's not fair to compare him against Hourihane as the circumstances had changed and in many ways they are different players, I don't doubt Luiz will bring us more going forward, in fact that's probably why Smith brought him on.

I have high hopes for Luiz, but I think 10 minutes is not a big enough sample set on which to judge him. I certainly don't feel those 10 minutes should be used to put the boot in on Hourihane who had a pretty decent game, if Luiz is the better player he will have the shirt sooner than later and Hourihane will still be very handy to keep around. I'm not Hourihanes biggest fan myself, but he should be judged fairly, he's been playing out of position essentially and done a great job by all accounts.

On Luiz, he looked okay, I want to see more though, 10 minutes didn't really show enough of his defensive work and positional play to draw any conclusions, I'm certainly excited to see more though!

Edited by Teale's 'tache
Typo
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5 hours ago, villalad21 said:

It is truth in that.

But on the bright side. If they do decide to buy him it will be because Luiz has done really well for us.

Yeah doesn't always work like that unfortunately, be nice if they were to buy him back as he'd improved and they want him for themselves but often it's purely to sell them on so they make the profit. Oh well is what it is. 

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1 hour ago, zab6359 said:

Yeah doesn't always work like that unfortunately, be nice if they were to buy him back as he'd improved and they want him for themselves but often it's purely to sell them on so they make the profit. Oh well is what it is. 

I don't think so in this case. The fact that there are addon's(I'm sure that's what I have heard) also indicates that any buy back won't be as cut and dried. I would think we are also savvy enough to ensure any buy back also includes first refusal in the event of City selling at a later date. Also a restriction in the fee they can charge us if they activate the buy back to then sell on. Especially as they have already profited in his sale. I also think any loss from our end will be rightly compensated as part of the deal in the event the clause is triggered. 

I wouldn't worry about this anyway. I can see Luiz staying for a min of 2 years if we stay up. Lets just see what he can do and hopefully the mancs have give us a diamond to help establish ourselves back in the PL.

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1 hour ago, zab6359 said:

Yeah doesn't always work like that unfortunately, be nice if they were to buy him back as he'd improved and they want him for themselves but often it's purely to sell them on so they make the profit. Oh well is what it is. 

But he would still have to agree to be their pawn for them to make easy money in this scenario.

I'd personally be quite offended if my old employer rang me, told me to go back there so they can get a fee for me then immediately joining somewhere else.

If I did want the move, I'd just cut out the middle man ie refuse a contract from Man City and accept one from Whoever so the club that I actually had minute on the pitch for and helped me develop was the one to benefit.

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21 hours ago, terrytini said:

God knows I’ve no enthusiasm for disagreement, ( so please view this as nothing more than a small observation !) but...

Ill say  straight out ordinarily I wouldn’t comment on a guy who played 10 minutes.

But your comments perplexed me..

And especially since some were interested how he did I thought I’d chip in.

Because my opinion, at the game, was that for a DM he didn’t really do any DM ing. I didn’t mind, As like I said, what do you expect in 10 minutes.

And today was the first time I’ve properly analysed the game....and thought the same.

Then I read your Post and I thought “ jeez how did I miss all that ?”....so I’ve just watched his 10 minutes again.

Then I had to watch it again, while referring back to your observations, as I couldn’t see what you were referring to.

(I have to confess one of the reasons I rewatch games several times is I am pretty poor at any details, I’m more of an overall atmosphere person).....so it didn’t surprise me I missed it.

But the second ( and third ) rewatch meant I finally knew the bits you must have meant....but ( in my eyes/ opinion) they didn’t look like that to me.

The raking 40 yard pass, if I’ve got the right one ( there were only about 4 passes so I think I’m right) was (as I see it) a standard, no pressure on him, 20 metre pass out to the wing. About as run of the mill as it’s gets.

Then twice in a minute later on he picked the ball up in front of the Back 4 and made ( again in my view) very basic ( Whelan - esque) passes. 

I didn’t / don’t think there was anything good ( or bad) about any of them. Not arguing, just saying we see things differently.

He certainly looked comfortable on the ball, but then, I think they pretty much all do !

There WAS one moment of very nice skill when he brought a clearance down well and dinked a little side pass.

But what did stand out, for me, was his absence for the third, but especially the second, goal.

The third I pretty much go along with you saying Sissoko  was all but gone....but I reckon he had the chance to foul him.

The second though ? Jack loses the ball but there is a moment when a sharp DM could get a tackle in. Luiz doesn’t appear to try to.

Do I blame him, fault him, or whatever....absolutely not. First game, only 10 minutes, opposition rampant.

But it suggested to me he’s not ready ( up to speed ).At least for the defensive side. Which you raised yourself.

Anyway...I’m not trying to make a song and dance about it. 

 

I'm totally with you on this one Terry, I thought at the time of reading dontdoitdoug's post "was I watching a different game?" And I've had to just watch the 10 minutes again and I concur your thoughts exactly.. the only 40 yard taking ball I saw was from Engels not Luiz.

Dont get me wrong, I have high hopes for him and think (hope) he will do extremely well for us but he wasn't that good on Saturday at all. 

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If he has a good IQ for how attacks develop then he should also understand what's required to interfere with opposition threats early on and before they have momentum and space.

That's the impression that I got from hunting down and watching whatever highlight reels I could, I think his ability to read the game combined with a knack for timing is what stood out.

It comes across like he does the simple things well and has a solid grasp of the fundamentals, seems he knows how to keep the game ticking at a favourable rate in attack.

At a glance his technical ability is there and adequate to play in the Premier League, however he is fairly modest in his use of these skills, I've not seen him overdo an attempt yet.

It'll take some time for him to get used to the standard of the Premier League as well as getting familiar with the movement expected of him in a new role.

Getting familiar with the abilities of his teammates will take some adjusting, if he's already executing well, no matter how basic the move, then he's on his way to worthy contributions.

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Anyone speak Portuguese and want to tell us what his Instagram stories are all about?

It looks like he's been chosen for some sort of award in Brazil. Or that he has been nominated for an award along with a few other Brazilian players, all look quite young. 

Edit: looks like he's been called up for the under 23s I think. 

As an aside, I've noticed that's he's actually quite small. 

Edited by PompeyVillan

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50 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

 

As an aside, I've noticed that's he's actually quite small. 

It’s not the size, but how you use it.... or so I’ve been told... no sorry so I’ve heard others say :detect:

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49 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

Anyone speak Portuguese and want to tell us what his Instagram stories are all about?

It looks like he's been chosen for some sort of award in Brazil. Or that he has been nominated for an award along with a few other Brazilian players, all look quite young. 

Edit: looks like he's been called up for the under 23s I think. 

As an aside, I've noticed that's he's actually quite small. 

It's weird because I thought the opposite, I was expecting him to be small but he looked more solid than I anticipated.  It was a brief cameo mind you.

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59 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

Anyone speak Portuguese and want to tell us what his Instagram stories are all about?

It looks like he's been chosen for some sort of award in Brazil. Or that he has been nominated for an award along with a few other Brazilian players, all look quite young. 

Edit: looks like he's been called up for the under 23s I think. 

As an aside, I've noticed that's he's actually quite small. 

He's 5ft 9 isn't he?

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