Douglas Luiz

[birdman]

30 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

At no point does Douglas 'tuck in' the guy is simply  quicker than him and then cuts across him. That's a slow Mo so makes it look worse for Doug.

Yeah to be fair I did edit my post on that point. Its a soft red card for sure! 

[sne]

4 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Ok, so who exactly in our midfield was mainly doing the defensive tasks then if its not him? Its not Mcginn and it obviously wasn't Barkley. Ramsey wasn't doing the job either. Only person who was, was Nakamba who primarily played in place of Luiz.

I'm not a football manager, but the tactic of having 3 CMs with none of them being defensive oriented seems a bit weird, especially considering one of those was an AM who never contributed defensively.

Its not that a DM like Luiz in this role can't work, but I would expect him to play alongside a destroyer, supposedly similar to how Brazil plays him with Casemiro. But as mentioned above, he very rarely plays alongside Nakamba, most of the time they sub for each other. Suggesting they do play similar roles.

Obviously, he has more license to pass than Nakamba but I do think he is still given the role of being the defending midfielder in that midfield 3. And as such, he should also be judged for his ability to defend for us.

 

Yeah of course he should also be judged on his defensive contribution, it's very much part of his role. But his role is just as much if not more to collect the ball during build up and to start our possessions. And we want to be a team that has the ball. Not a Newcastle who soaks up pressure and sits deep. We have some way to go on that front yet.

Mentioned tons of times that I wouldn't mind us signing someone like Kamara or Tchouaméni to slot in as a DCM rather than a #10. I think signing a #10 with our current CM's might leave us with some of the same issues we had last season, although whoever we sign will likely put in more work than Barkley did and be more ready than Ramsey was. I don't think we can or will sign both a DCM and a ACM this window thou.

I hope and think that when fit a midfield 3 of Luiz, McGinn & Sanson might work pretty well as a (5 South American role) 6,8,8. Might not be perfect but along with Buendia at RW it would be a big upgrade compared to last season.

My issue with Luiz is that he will be absolutely knackered after last season and then playing both the Copa and the Olympics this summer. And then Nakamba goes off to the AFCON for a month in Jan-Feb.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, sne said:

Let's see if our midfield and defense is put under as much pressure now that we no longer has a disinterested Barkley and a not so defensive interested Traore doing no pressing or tracking back when we lose the ball.

Adding Buendia should solve a huge part of what was our biggest weakness in not being able to keep the ball in the attacking 3rd and at winning it back higher up the pitch.

If we add someone like Bailey it would make us so much harder to defend against as the opponents will need to cover for his pace.

I'm sure a out and out DCM would make us better without the ball and that would be great of course. But I don't thin that is the role that Smith want's his deepest CM to have and I think Smith wants us to have the ball more often rather than focus on when we don't have it. Obviously a player who fills both those roles in one is the dream but then you are looking at £50m-£80m players and we are not there. Sure you can pick them up if you scout well and are lucky but it's no mean feat.

I think a lot of the critique aimed at Luiz is based on fans expecting him to play a role Smith is not asking him to play. He is the deepest sitting CM, but he's not a anchor man DCM who mainly has defensive tasks. He is more of a deep playmaker or a Xabi Alonso type.

I get all that and I am not arguing, you make some thoughtful points.....you could be right, Barkley could have been a /the problem, in what you say....we will soon see.

Lets give you the benefit of the doubt....Dean Smith, plays him as a deep lying playmaker, whatever one of those is, I hear the term, not sure what one really is in terms of their expected functions.....its like a "sweeper" that  just picks up the loose balls, you have one if your CB's are suspect, that was soon dispensed with as inefficient use of a player, I presume.

do you agree? you can't play without the ball......so who is expected to win it back when we don't have it, is it a collective effort or does 1 or 2 players have the main responsibility?......when it goes past midfield, we are then entering dangerous territory, where riccochets, partial blocks, speculative shots or overloads can cause chaos, and thats when stupid errors are made.....To tighten midfield is where teams make Europe, they are hard to beat and good at picking up points, even on an off day.

We all love swashbuckling football, but without the control, there is rarely an end product over 38 Games.

I guess Emi Buendia, will make a difference to RB, but its in centre midfield, we need that dominance.....play making is fine, when you have the ball, competing for it is where we struggle.

it doesn't matter, what formation or system a manager deploys, the fundaments of the game need to be applied.

as an example..Traore can do things many players can't, but he won't control games to get points...He will have magic moments that might win some games......there is a difference.

We need a Gareth Barry type to make that push.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, birdman said:

Yeah if you've lost the foot race its no good tucking in behind the player and risk clipping their legs. Go left or right or just get the feck out the way! 

Edit: it's slightly unfortunate for Doug as the player cuts accross him but he has the right to do that as he's well in front.

Thats what good players do, cut across and commit the defender.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, QldVilla said:

I tend to agree and find it frustrating not understanding Smith’s methodology.

There are many quality DM’s in Europe with clubs needing to sell to balance the books, but appears to be no urgency to fill this position. I hope this isn’t another O’Neill Mk II where the manager is too stubborn on their own philosophy and can’t see the forest through the trees.

Dean has never really explained it, has he?

He sets us up and just goes for the 3 points, some would say so what, he doesn't have to.....but I see other teams like Leicester and West Ham and can see why they can hold midfield.....I'm talking over a season not the odd game.

Dean will naturally live by his principles.....I just hope they work, but from what I can see so far from McGinn and Luiz in that 2.....we won't get European football....thats just my call.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, QldVilla said:

I tend to agree and find it frustrating not understanding Smith’s methodology.

There are many quality DM’s in Europe with clubs needing to sell to balance the books, but appears to be no urgency to fill this position. I hope this isn’t another O’Neill Mk II where the manager is too stubborn on their own philosophy and can’t see the forest through the trees.

Dean has his own methods, just like every Villa Manager, I have seen.

I would like to stand beside him and ask what he see's when we simply surrender the middle of the park and concede ground, only to expect the defence to bail us out.....by this time, our attack starts from too deep, so the opposition have time to regroup and reorganise, so then we find it difficult to break down, when they have reorganised.

I would love to hear his thoughts and explanations on the way we are expected to play.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, RichiBoi11 said:

The most sesnible post in here, by a long long way. He's not a CDM, and Smith doesn't want him as one. There are a lot of fans in here that want a real top drawer CDM, and I understand why they do, but that's not the style Smith utilises, and I feel Luiz gets unfairly blasted for not being that player, when he's not expected to be by the management anyway. 

Give him a decent rest after the Olympics and then ease him back in as a playmaker 6/8 hybrid and you could easily see him back to the form he showed during project restart.

That is all well and good.....but who is expected to win the ball back? and what is he expected to do then?what is his prime function?.....don't say everybody, because they don't....outside of the back 4 and Ollie, we rarely win the ball SJM now and again, not like his championship days....we have many players, not renowned for winning the ball back.....Jack doesn't and yes I love Jack, but you can't have too many that don't, unless they are special like him.....Dougie is not special, sorry.

Its like saying, we don't play with centre backs we play with ball playing defenders who just start attacks, we don't believe in aerial balls, they just read the game and play out from the back......BS.....you'd get relegated.

There are fundamental functions in a football team that have to be addressed, someone has to do them.....If we don't win the ball enough, we are likely to concede, if we concede, we then put more pressure on the front men to score.

 

[RichiBoi11]

Just now, TRO said:

That is all well and good.....but who is expected to win the ball back? and what is he expected to do then?what is his prime function?.....don't say everybody, because they don't....outside of the back 4 and Ollie, we rarely win the ball SJM now and again, not like his championship days....we have many players, not renowned for winning the ball back.....Jack doesn't and yes I love Jack, but you can't have too many that don't, unless they are special like him.....Dougie is not special, sorry.

Its like saying, we don't play with centre backs we play with ball playing defenders who just start attacks, we don't believe in aerial balls, they just read the game and play out from the back......BS.....you'd get relegated.

There are fundamental functions in a football team that have to be addressed, someone has to do them.....If we don't win the ball enough, we are likely to concede, if we concede, we then put more pressure on the front men to score.

 

You could easily flip this the other way around and say he's not focusing on who has to win the ball back, because he wants to play in a way where a ball winner isn't essential. I agree that if you don't win the ball enough you're likely to conceed, but that's relative to your possession, and location of it on the pitch. If he's adding technical players like Buendia and hopefully Bailey, who are adept at keeping the ball that in itself relives pressure, and you don't have to win the ball back if you don't give it away in the first place.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, RichiBoi11 said:

You could easily flip this the other way around and say he's not focusing on who has to win the ball back, because he wants to play in a way where a ball winner isn't essential. I agree that if you don't win the ball enough you're likely to conceed, but that's relative to your possession, and location of it on the pitch. If he's adding technical players like Buendia and hopefully Bailey, who are adept at keeping the ball that in itself relives pressure, and you don't have to win the ball back if you don't give it away in the first place.

That is a mighty fanciful position to take up, if you don't mind me saying.

I guess we will all have free beer in the ground and pies handed to us at half time.....lets get real.....The best teams in world football lose the ball, Man city do, watch them win it back immediately.

Technical players, give the ball away, the better they are the less they do it, but they do it, its inevitable.

We have to make provision, for such moments and it is often mentioned how good a team is without the ball....its organisation and predatory instinct in recovering it, the best teams do it.

We are not one of the best teams, but our ambition is to get there....to get there, we have to improve on the improvement so far.

Anyone who watches Villa, know where our weaknesses lie, even if they don't want to talk about them.

I will categorically tell you now, we cannot keep seeking /signing wingers expecting to blow teams away.....it is fantasy land.

We have to respect the opposition in the way we set up, then we can set about dismantling them, later.

[sne]

It's more about where on the pitch are you aiming to win back the ball. Most of the best teams in the world aim to win the ball back as high up the pitch as possible. Often with the help of their attackers and attacking midfielders rather than with a DCM or their CB's. Obviously they also have very good players in central midfield of course.

Now we are no where close to being one of the best teams in the world so it doesn't 100% apply to us but I think that is the aim with how Smith want's to play too. Have the ball more under control and higher up the pitch, and when you lose the ball try and win it back as soon as possible rather than to drop back and soak up pressure.

And as for pushing for Europe this season I think it would need us to bring in both a very good CM, a very good ACM or winger along with a CB and a back up striker. Too much to be done in one window. And this would still require some of the teams above us to screw up even more than they did last season. We can absolutely compete with Leeds, and both Wet Spam and Everton are catchable. But I don't think we should expect to just waltz past Spurs or Arsenal.

 

[Indigo]

5 hours ago, sne said:

Let's see if our midfield and defense is put under as much pressure now that we no longer has a disinterested Barkley and a not so defensive interested Traore doing no pressing or tracking back when we lose the ball.

Adding Buendia should solve a huge part of what was our biggest weakness in not being able to keep the ball in the attacking 3rd and at winning it back higher up the pitch.

If we add someone like Bailey it would make us so much harder to defend against as the opponents will need to cover for his pace.

I'm sure a out and out DCM would make us better without the ball and that would be great of course. But I don't thin that is the role that Smith want's his deepest CM to have and I think Smith wants us to have the ball more often rather than focus on when we don't have it. Obviously a player who fills both those roles in one is the dream but then you are looking at £50m-£80m players and we are not there. Sure you can pick them up if you scout well and are lucky but it's no mean feat.

I think a lot of the critique aimed at Luiz is based on fans expecting him to play a role Smith is not asking him to play. He is the deepest sitting CM, but he's not a anchor man DCM who mainly has defensive tasks. He is more of a deep playmaker or a Xabi Alonso type.

Nail. On. Head.

I appreciate why some people feel he can be upgraded upon, as he certainly can be. But the talk that he's more suited to being a 10 than the role he's been deployed in by several coaches now spins me for a loop.

[villalad21]

34 minutes ago, sne said:

It's more about where on the pitch are you aiming to win back the ball. Most of the best teams in the world aim to win the ball back as high up the pitch as possible. Often with the help of their attackers and attacking midfielders rather than with a DCM or their CB's. Obviously they also have very good players in central midfield of course.

Now we are no where close to being one of the best teams in the world so it doesn't 100% apply to us but I think that is the aim with how Smith want's to play too. Have the ball more under control and higher up the pitch, and when you lose the ball try and win it back as soon as possible rather than to drop back and soak up pressure.

And as for pushing for Europe this season I think it would need us to bring in both a very good CM, a very good ACM or winger along with a CB and a back up striker. Too much to be done in one window. And this would still require some of the teams above us to screw up even more than they did last season. We can absolutely compete with Leeds, and both Wet Spam and Everton are catchable. But I don't think we should expect to just waltz past Spurs or Arsenal.

 

Most top teams also have a proper DM though.

Obviously agree with pressing from the front is how the modern game have developed but that doesn't undermine the Defensive midfield role. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Last season our midfield got bypassed like a knife through butter. As a result Emi and the defence was highly overworked. And that will keep happening this season if the midfield is not addressed.

And to be frank I'd be highly concerned if Smith doesn't feel a DM is an integral part to his teams.

Despite not being perfect Nakamba would be the first name on my team sheet. Every day of the week.

Edited July 26, 2021 by villalad21

[sne]

Just now, villalad21 said:

Most top teams also have a proper DM though.

Obviously agree with pressing from the front is how the modern game have developed but that doesn't undermine the Defensive midfield role. By any stretch of the imagination.

And to be frank I'd be highly concerned if Smith doesn't feel a DM is an integral part to his teams.

Despite not being perfect Nakamba would be the first name on my team sheet. Every day of the week.

[MrBlack]

1 minute ago, sne said:

Grealish who? Also... please stop quoting nonsense. 

[sparrow1988]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

Most top teams also have a proper DM though.

Obviously agree with pressing from the front is how the modern game have developed but that doesn't undermine the Defensive midfield role. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Last season our midfield got bypassed like a knife through butter. As a result Emi and the defence was highly overworked. And that will keep happening this season if the midfield is not addressed.

And to be frank I'd be highly concerned if Smith doesn't feel a DM is an integral part to his teams.

Despite not being perfect Nakamba would be the first name on my team sheet. Every day of the week.

When did you move to San Fran from Zimbabwe?

[tinker]

Its not just winning the ball back its pressing the ball when the  opposition has it and making them check their progress and in doing it not giving away free kicks , which is what Douglas does when he plays a dcm role.

We need a Rice/ Philips type player . Obviously not as polished as they are but one that can pressure the ball for 90 minutes and then play a simple pass and make space for themselves when we have the ball. 

Nakamba maybe that player given more time, but he does seem to have moments in games when he loses his composure.

I would rather see £30m spent on a dcm than another winger and believe it would push us closer to Europe as well.

The likes of Bailey and Bertie are great when you a chasing a goal but are a liability when you are defending to see out a narrow win or a draw against quality opposition. They will turn over the ball far to often and invite pressure.

It's an interesting test of Smith and how he sees us progressing.  For me a lack of a quality dcm was our biggest  flaw last season 

[Delphinho123]

11 minutes ago, tinker said:

Its not just winning the ball back its pressing the ball when the  opposition has it and making them check their progress and in doing it not giving away free kicks , which is what Douglas does when he plays a dcm role.

We need a Rice/ Philips type player . Obviously not as polished as they are but one that can pressure the ball for 90 minutes and then play a simple pass and make space for themselves when we have the ball. 

Nakamba maybe that player given more time, but he does seem to have moments in games when he loses his composure.

I would rather see £30m spent on a dcm than another winger and believe it would push us closer to Europe as well.

The likes of Bailey and Bertie are great when you a chasing a goal but are a liability when you are defending to see out a narrow win or a draw against quality opposition. They will turn over the ball far to often and invite pressure.

It's an interesting test of Smith and how he sees us progressing.  For me a lack of a quality dcm was our biggest  flaw last season 

Bailey and a quality DCM and we challenge for Europe. Without a doubt. 

[villalad21]

2 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Bailey and a quality DCM and we challenge for Europe. Without a doubt. 

McGinn need replacing too. 

Never a top 6 player. 

[Delphinho123]

55 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

McGinn need replacing too. 

Never a top 6 player. 

Yes, but I think you can get away with having one or two players that aren't 'top 6 players' in your team to actually compete and finish inside the top 6. 
For example, Fred is s***. 

[burchy]

IMHO I think we need the clone of both Luiz and Nakamba as our DCM. Someone who can offer progressive carries of the ball from deep into the opponents half/attacking third. We need someone who can nick the ball and then drive us forward, either by progressing the ball themselves or by having passing skills to make a counter attacking pass. 

So we would then have the ability to counter should Watkins or Buendia press effectively but also if our opponents beat our initial press and the ball gets further into our own half. 

Neither Luiz or Nakamba are that player (at the moment). 

We need an Anguissa, Caqueret or Tchouameni for this role.