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19 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

If Luiz is our main dm next season we have massively failed in the marked. 

Massive exaggeration. What is it with you and extreme positions?

This summer if we go and sign Tammy Abraham, Emi Buendia, Axel Tuanzebe, Rico Henry, Mattheus Pereira, etc then that’s a solid improvement on our squad and under no stretch of the imagination could it be called a massive failure.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, TRO said:

If thats all they are looking for in a DM, I understand the stance.

"retrieve" is a word that spells passive to me, I want to use the word "Win" ball or dispossess the opponent, that requires a controlled element of power and aggression....He primarily picks up loose balls, which is ok, but not enough.

I look for more than that.....Its a regista role and it requires more than just feeding the attack, it requires, winning the ball, turning it over and protecting the back 4...it requires directing the field of play.

you are looking at half his job......but hey McGinn is not one either, despite being played in the double pivot and Nakamba is limited too......thats one of the reasons we have problems controlling a game.

Its word semantics as the above highlighted basically boil down to the exact same thing. IMO what you are referring to is an outdated concept where the DM is a brute enforcer. Nowadays being a modern DM is more about being smart both with and without the, not just be harder and bigger. Luiz has all the characteristics to be a world class DM. Harrying the ball and closing down, cutting off passes into dangerous areas putting players off but not given them space and then settling up play. Kante is the don at it. Makulele the godfather. Carrick honourable mention. Harry Winks is similar - slight in build but effective at both breaking up play and then recycling the ball with intent rather than passive passing to his midfield partner to take play forward. 

Edited by thabucks
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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

When people are referring to what he does well it tends to be when he is in possession and going forward. And when referring to what he doesn't do well it tends to be off the ball stuff, particularly when defending. 

Think i see a pattern here. 

DM should be first on our transfer list in priority. 

If Luiz is our main dm next season we have massively failed in the marked. 

It’s inevitable that unless you  are looking out for it specifically, then the intricacies and nuances of being a great modern DM goes largely unnoticed. You look at all modern matrixes DM’s are evaluated and you’ll find Luiz near the very top . 

I feel a lot of posters do not understand how the game is constantly evolving and how the role Of a DM has shifted from brute enforcer to in essence a clever playmaker.  It’s also forgotten that Smith’s footballing philosophy throughout his career has been to prefer a certain modern type of DM who is as good at starting attacks as stopping them. I used to feel we needed a (racially stereotyped) DM but after reading in depth about both the language used to describe black players ( usually referred to as physical characteristic only ) and how the modern game has moved on, I appreciate that a player like Luiz or Harry winks can be very effective line of defence and attack. The best teams nowadays press from the front and so the need for a solid tackling midfielder with limited skills is consigned to history. Jedinak was the last of his breed thankfully. 

Edited by thabucks
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Not sure if i agree with this "modern" DM thing thrown around in here.

McToinay is less talented on the ball than Luiz but id have him at DM every day of the week.

Good big one better than a good small one still applies in the modern game for certain positions.

Edited by villalad21
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1 minute ago, villalad21 said:

Not sure if i agree with this "modern" DM thing thrown around in here.

McToinay is less talented on the ball than Luiz but id have him at DM every day of the week.

Good big one better than a good small one still applies in the modern game for certain positions.

Mctominay is Scottish ergo he would be less talented in many respects compared to Brazilian born Luiz raised playing Favela futsal ... He may be slightly stronger due to his height advantage I’ll give you that.
 

Do we need another type of midfielder to Partner him is the qwsution I’d be asking. Not who should replace him.

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1 minute ago, thabucks said:

Mctominay is Scottish ergo he would be less talented in many respects compared to Brazilian born Luiz raised playing Favela futsal ... He may be slightly stronger due to his height advantage I’ll give you that.
 

Do we need another type of midfielder to Partner him is the qwsution I’d be asking. Not who should replace him.

I would make a bid for Berge from SU and have Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey ad Sanson fighting it out for the box to box roles. 

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McTominay isn't DM, neither is Billing, or Berge, people seem to be making the constant mistake that just because a player is strong and tall they must be DM, all of them are box-to-box midfielders and if we were to sign any of them they wouldn't be competing with Luiz, they'd be competiting with McGInn, Sanson and Ramsey for a place in the midfield ahead of Luiz.

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Just now, thabucks said:

That is something we are in complete agreement with 

No one is saying we should get rid of or replace Luiz.

But some folks feels he is deployed in the wrong position.

Incident with Pogba is the perfect example why he should not play at DM. Pogba's size alone, Luiz couldn't get near him and got bullied.

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Pogba is a world class CM and Luiz showed poor decision making in the heat of the moment. Something he’ll learn and grow from hopefully. It wasn’t down to size - kante is Tommy Elphick esque in stature 

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On 09/05/2021 at 19:22, TRO said:

But he is being played at CDM.

Now that poses a real question?

I think, there lies an epitome of our overall team thinking....Watch us with the ball v without the ball and you will see my reasoning.

It's a massive hole in the squad. Either luiz or mcginn are played cdm, and out of position. 

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56 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Pogba is a world class CM and Luiz showed poor decision making in the heat of the moment. Something he’ll learn and grow from hopefully. It wasn’t down to size - kante is Tommy Elphick esque in stature 

Kante is " Small " but Kante is strong as an OX, athletic, dynamic and combative.

What he lacks in size, he makes up for in every other area, for that role.

Recently, he has been getting forward more too.

Edited by JAMAICAN-VILLAN
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1 hour ago, useless said:

McTominay isn't DM, neither is Billing, or Berge, people seem to be making the constant mistake that just because a player is strong and tall they must be DM, all of them are box-to-box midfielders and if we were to sign any of them they wouldn't be competing with Luiz, they'd be competiting with McGInn, Sanson and Ramsey for a place in the midfield ahead of Luiz.

Yep, have seen it said a couple of times on here about McTominay yet United fans' general opinion on him is that he's a box to box player and the most needed signing for them is an actual DM who can remove the need to play both him and Fred together.

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6 minutes ago, Indigo said:

Yep, have seen it said a couple of times on here about McTominay yet United fans' general opinion on him is that he's a box to box player and the most needed signing for them is an actual DM who can remove the need to play both him and Fred together.

Maybe he's just a " modern " DM. ;)

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I thought he was our best player until the penalty. After that he lost his head.  He has a massive role in the team but such a young inexperienced player. Maybe it’s too much responsibility too soon. 

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Posted (edited)

In the game vs Everton I thought he was ineffective in the first half but after calling for him to be subbed at half time I kept noticing his positive link play in the second half despite being under the cloud of a yellow card. However he was busy and smart in link play but nothing spectacular or eye catching, but nor did I notice any notable tackles or defensive play. 

What do we want from that position? A barn storming blood and guts destroyer; a large physical presence who can break up play but also run with the ball; a busy deep lying midfielder who interferes with attacks, lingers around between the defence and the front 3 but has quick thinking link play?

Edited by thunderball
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3 hours ago, abdomlahor said:

i thought he played well bar the penalty.

I think his head went a bit afterwards, but up until then he was having a good game.

Shame we have a few brainlets who feel the need to attack our own on social media though, in a year with no love from the stands we could do without him finishing the season with that taste in his mouth. 

Still think he’ll grow into a really cracking player, just hope it’s with us. 

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5 hours ago, Nigel said:

That annoyingly good ginger lad at Brentford...thats his role!

He plays in the DM position but he's really more of a withdrawn playmaker/Westwood metronome. 

not sure if was the Bruce system vs Brentford or the Dean Smith system vs Villa that made him look awesome. Sadly for Woods his career after Brentford has been very poor

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Im not gonna right luiz off. I like him. He is still really young but will learn from this.

What concerns me is all the shitty messages he is getting from his own fans on social media.

Do we want our players to all start leaving because of the abuse?

Some thick fans we have

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