Douglas Luiz

[TRO]

37 minutes ago, Pez1974 said:

Don't confuse strength with shithousery - Busquets was one of the biggest shit houses around (and smart with it); he could mix it when he needed to.
Pogba is built like a brick privy, but give him a hard stare in the penalty area, he goes down quicker....well, you know.

I think a lot of our team are still a bit 'green' in the dark arts. Except Jack. But we have the youngest average age in the league; no-one should be writing anybody off yet. Unless they're called Henri. 

Then you don't either, thats a poor argument.

you can say that again.

but, who is writing anyone off.....we are just calling the game for what it was.

and mixing it when you need to is being strong & savvy, not shithousery as you put it.....I would not put Busquets in that category at all......maybe Vinnie Jones, but that is an extreme example..... what Burnley did was within the rules of the game, else they would have seen Reds.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by TRO

[MarkLillis]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

Did you watch Burnley....did you glean anything from what they did.

This was a team totally outplayed in on eperiod of the game, who dug deep to get the win.....is nothing in what they did, to convince you we are lacking in a certain area.

just in case you missed it....they were the ones who came out with the 3 points.

They did what they do best. They can do it to the best teams in the league as Liverpool found out themselves.

I'm not sure Liverpool will be looking to strengthen areas of their team because of their defeat to Burnley and I'm not sure we need to on strength of our either.

I think we just need to stick to the plan and buy accordingly (the type of player you describe might be next up anyway?) and let our young team can learn some "dark arts" for them selves instead of us buying a ready made shithouser.

John Terry and Dean Smith must know  few tricks between them surely

[Pez1974]

16 minutes ago, TRO said:

Then you don't either, thats a poor argument.

you can say that again.

but, who is writing anyone off.....we are just calling the game for what it was.

and mixing it when you need to is being strong & savvy, not shithousery as you put it.....I would not put Busquets in that category at all......maybe Vinnie Jones, but that is an extreme example..... what Burnley did was within the rules of the game, else they would have seen Reds.

 

My response was to a point that Busquets could be blown down with a feather. He could - when he choose to. But he could also mix it. Not an argument.

I never made a comment about last nights game, but I do think that there were a few challenges which 'smarter' players/teams would've made a bigger fuss over.
It's perhaps not the best example, but I thought Wood was pulling shirts all game in every tussle; and there was a blatant one when he won the corner with Mings which they scored from. I think we should've been pointing this out to the ref from the start, and it may have got us a free kick, instead of them having a corner. Doesn't excuse the defending; I don't blame Mings or the ref - but it is my opinion that 'smart' teams get these things more often, and leads to the perception of referee bias. On this score, I think we are a bit 'green' - but we have got better over the past 12 months. 

With regards the 'writing off' - a few have said that Luiz isn't a DM because of {add a variety of comments} - I say give him time, as I'm sure many others think too.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, sparrow1988 said:

When people mention Busquets they very rarely mention his physicality as a strong point. I don't think it is one of his strengths. A stiff breeze would knock him over.

I think it's worth persevering with Luiz in the role that he is in. I believe it is where his future lies long term. I expect him to develop the physicality required to fulfil the role. He is young and has yet to learn 'all' the tricks of the trade but he's a clever player and I believe that he will.

Some of the best players that have played his position have been 'farts' - Keane, Makelele, Kante, Mascherano, Deschamps, Davids, Gattuso, Cambiasso. However, they didn't really excel until they became streetsmart. Of course you have your big 'uns - Vieira, Simeone, De Rossi, Redondo but there one thing that connects all of these players. They could play. Luiz can too and will IMO become an outstanding DM and if he stays with us will be the 6 in this team in to the future.

In the meantime until he is the finished unit and also in general, a player similar to Matic, or a bigger version of Nakamba, would be nice in order to complement Luiz when teams decide they are going to mix it up physically. However in 9 matches out of 10 I would still go with Luiz.

I don't disagree, with any of that.....I am not closing a book on Luiz, far from it......just merely pointing one of the  vulnerabilities in our side......if we have to wait, for him, we have to wait.....but don't be surprised if it happens again, in the near future.

And I do agree CDM is more of a mature role.

I am not nit picking but the players you mention are far from passive and far from "farts" .....3 are 5'10 so hardly diminutive.....but lets not get too carried away with height, its more about natural aggression and a nose for stopping the opposition having its way...height is just one feature and a useful tool in aerial combat.....its hard to compete with a big guy in the air, that is an undeniable fact.

That game last night was crying out for a player who could negate, cheeky upstarts from trying to gate crash our game.....they bullied their way back in, through our reluctance to stop them.....they saw a hole in the fence and went through it, neutrals would say, fair play to them, you only have yourselves to blame.....and thats where I am.......and judging by Dean Smiths comments and Demeanor, thats where he was too.

[TRO]

34 minutes ago, MarkLillis said:

They did what they do best. They can do it to the best teams in the league as Liverpool found out themselves.

I'm not sure Liverpool will be looking to strengthen areas of their team because of their defeat to Burnley and I'm not sure we need to on strength of our either.

I think we just need to stick to the plan and buy accordingly (the type of player you describe might be next up anyway?) and let our young team can learn some "dark arts" for them selves instead of us buying a ready made shithouser.

John Terry and Dean Smith must know  few tricks between them surely

I think the term you use " shithouser" detracts and demeans from the real issue....a colloquial word that misleads the point being made.

There are many ways of addressing issues and buying players is one......I am sure Liverpool will be examining their deficiences that Burnley exploited, just like we will.

The player, I describe might be next up because the club know its needed.....some of us on here have talked about it in the past, only to be denied by dedicated followers of "The Modern Game" what ever that means.

so did the Dinosaurs beat the contemporaries last night?

learning the "Dark Arts" is one way and I am not opposed to that.

 

 

[TRO]

9 hours ago, Pez1974 said:

My response was to a point that Busquets could be blown down with a feather. He could - when he choose to. But he could also mix it. Not an argument.

I never made a comment about last nights game, but I do think that there were a few challenges which 'smarter' players/teams would've made a bigger fuss over.
It's perhaps not the best example, but I thought Wood was pulling shirts all game in every tussle; and there was a blatant one when he won the corner with Mings which they scored from. I think we should've been pointing this out to the ref from the start, and it may have got us a free kick, instead of them having a corner. Doesn't excuse the defending; I don't blame Mings or the ref - but it is my opinion that 'smart' teams get these things more often, and leads to the perception of referee bias. On this score, I think we are a bit 'green' - but we have got better over the past 12 months. 

With regards the 'writing off' - a few have said that Luiz isn't a DM because of {add a variety of comments} - I say give him time, as I'm sure many others think too.

I am not sure he is right now, but if he develops a Billy Bremner/Johnny Giles  approach to the role, then I might change my mind.....he needs to find an edge to his game.

Look, I know you can't get away with what they did today, but a bit more aggression, when required would not go amiss in a few of our players ,not just Dougie.

Edited January 29, 2021 by TRO

[sparrow1988]

33 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't disagree, with any of that.....I am not closing a book on Luiz, far from it......just merely pointing one of the  vulnerabilities in our side......if we have to wait, for him, we have to wait.....but don't be surprised if it happens again, in the near future.

And I do agree CDM is more of a mature role.

I am not nit picking but the players you mention are far from passive and far from "farts" .....3 are 5'10 so hardly diminutive.....but lets not get too carried away with height, its more about natural aggression and a nose for stopping the opposition having its way...height is just one feature and a useful tool in aerial combat.....its hard to compete with a big guy in the air, that is an undeniable fact.

That game last night was crying out for a player who could negate, cheeky upstarts from trying to gate crash our game.....they bullied their way back in, through our reluctance to stop them.....they saw a hole in the fence and went through it, neutrals would say, fair play to them, you only have yourselves to blame.....and thats where I am.......and judging by Dean Smiths comments and Demeanor, thats where he was too.

Farts was a tongue in cheek term but the ones listed in the "shorter group" are within an inch or two of Luiz. Some smaller. I agree it's more about natural aggression which I actually believe Luiz has. When he tackles he wins the ball so cleanly that maybe it goes unnoticed. He will only get better IMO and he'll only learn from playing in games like last night. As someone said he is 22 - I think at 27 he will be a hell of a player and that as a DM. On that score we'll have to wait and see.

There will be more games like last night while he and the team are developing. Hell, there'll even be games like last night if we ever become league champions - they will just become more seldom. But I agree another option in the midfield is the ideal scenario (maybe Sanson). We're just not in the position yet to buy the finished product so even if/when we buy the more physical player now he will most likely have a deficiency elsewhere.

It's a case of picking a team which limits the oppositions effectiveness against you while at the same time not negating your own ability to affect the game. And that is a very fine balancing act.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

Farts was a tongue in cheek term but the ones listed in the "shorter group" are within an inch or two of Luiz. Some smaller. I agree it's more about natural aggression which I actually believe Luiz has. When he tackles he wins the ball so cleanly that maybe it goes unnoticed. He will only get better IMO and he'll only learn from playing in games like last night. As someone said he is 22 - I think at 27 he will be a hell of a player and that as a DM. On that score we'll have to wait and see.

There will be more games like last night while he and the team are developing. Hell, there'll even be games like last night if we ever become league champions - they will just become more seldom. But I agree another option in the midfield is the ideal scenario (maybe Sanson). We're just not in the position yet to buy the finished product so even if/when we buy the more physical player now he will most likely have a deficiency elsewhere.

It's a case of picking a team which limits the oppositions effectiveness against you while at the same time not negating your own ability to affect the game. And that is a very fine balancing act.

Totally Agree.

Just a thought......against a team like Burnley.....could we play Hause ( if fit) alongside Mings and Konsa in a CDM role alongside Luiz.

I can't comment on Sanson, because i haven't seen him properly, yet.

[TRO]

18 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

Farts was a tongue in cheek term but the ones listed in the "shorter group" are within an inch or two of Luiz. Some smaller. I agree it's more about natural aggression which I actually believe Luiz has. When he tackles he wins the ball so cleanly that maybe it goes unnoticed. He will only get better IMO and he'll only learn from playing in games like last night. As someone said he is 22 - I think at 27 he will be a hell of a player and that as a DM. On that score we'll have to wait and see.

There will be more games like last night while he and the team are developing. Hell, there'll even be games like last night if we ever become league champions - they will just become more seldom. But I agree another option in the midfield is the ideal scenario (maybe Sanson). We're just not in the position yet to buy the finished product so even if/when we buy the more physical player now he will most likely have a deficiency elsewhere.

It's a case of picking a team which limits the oppositions effectiveness against you while at the same time not negating your own ability to affect the game. And that is a very fine balancing act.

I haven't seen it lately, must be me.

would be interesting to look at the stats and see how many balls he wins.

Edited January 28, 2021 by TRO

[PaulC]

30 minutes ago, TRO said:

Totally Agree.

Just a thought......against a team like Burnley.....could we play Hause ( if fit) alongside Mings and Konsa in a CDM role alongside Luiz.

I can't comment on Sanson, because i haven't seen him properly, yet.

If Smith had have done that and we lost, just think of the stick he would have got.  Maybe Smith could have made the change second half with Barkley tiring and Traore offering no defensive cover. our weakness is down our right side  and teams are exposing it. Far too much space. Cash cant do it on his own. Luiz as well as Traore have to help Cash out a lot more.  

Edited January 28, 2021 by PaulC

[andym]

43 minutes ago, TRO said:

I haven't seen it lately, must be me.

would be interesting to look at the stats and see how many balls he wins.

As per the Premier League website, in terms of 'aerial battles won' he is joint 90th out of every player, and 18th out of midfielders. Also to note, for some reason the midfielder list also has Kortney Hause ahead of him, even though he's a defender,  so you can knock Luiz up to 17th, and then there's the likes of Eric Dier and Fabinho who have been filling in at CB, so that may skew their stats.

He's way down the list on tackles, but 20th in terms of clearances (again you have Hause, Dier and Fabinho above him in the list), so i would say he's more about positioning and clearances, which is probably better than letting the opposition get the ball first and then having to tackle.

Just because he's not putting in big sliding tackles, doesn't mean he's not aggressive. Putting in that extra effort in the first few steps to beat the man to the ball first and clear it, snapping at the heels to force a mistake or channel him into a teammate - it won't go down as a tackle, but that is still aggressive to me, and for most of this season that has been really noticeable in his play.

I would say though since we came back from Covid break, he hasn't been anywhere near the level he was. I do wonder if he is one of the ones who had it.

 

 

[TRO]

7 hours ago, andym said:

As per the Premier League website, in terms of 'aerial battles won' he is joint 90th out of every player, and 18th out of midfielders. Also to note, for some reason the midfielder list also has Kortney Hause ahead of him, even though he's a defender,  so you can knock Luiz up to 17th, and then there's the likes of Eric Dier and Fabinho who have been filling in at CB, so that may skew their stats.

He's way down the list on tackles, but 20th in terms of clearances (again you have Hause, Dier and Fabinho above him in the list), so i would say he's more about positioning and clearances, which is probably better than letting the opposition get the ball first and then having to tackle.

Just because he's not putting in big sliding tackles, doesn't mean he's not aggressive. Putting in that extra effort in the first few steps to beat the man to the ball first and clear it, snapping at the heels to force a mistake or channel him into a teammate - it won't go down as a tackle, but that is still aggressive to me, and for most of this season that has been really noticeable in his play.

I would say though since we came back from Covid break, he hasn't been anywhere near the level he was. I do wonder if he is one of the ones who had it.

 

 

Its all about opinions Andy and I accept he is still in his learning years....but I am just not convinced,yet

Petrov was not a prolific tackler either they called him the insurance man, intercepted more than tackled......to do that you have to have a good awareness and an ability to read the game.....I don't think Dougie is as good as Petrov, yet.

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by TRO

[lexicon]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Did you watch Burnley....did you glean anything from what they did.

This was a team totally outplayed in on eperiod of the game, who dug deep to get the win.....is nothing in what they did, to convince you we are lacking in a certain area.

just in case you missed it....they were the ones who came out with the 3 points.

Yes, I did - meathead CDM doesn't win us that game.

 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Yes, I did - meathead CDM doesn't win us that game.

 

It might have helped us from them stampeding forward like Wildebeest.

Edited January 28, 2021 by TRO

[lexicon]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

It might have helped us from them stampeding forward like Wildebeest.

We had 61.8% possession in that game - we were hardly overrun in midfield, they just hit us on the counter. 

 

[lexicon]

@TRO somebody literally suggested Jedinak would improve our midfield. A man who couldn't pass or dribble the ball ffs. 

[Zatman]

If any midfield was overrun last night it was Burnley midfield with Westwood and Brownhill looking all over the place. none of the goals came through Dougie position and like most of the season he hasnt been an issue defensively but everytime we lose we need to remove him for a clogger

[TRO]

58 minutes ago, lexicon said:

@TRO somebody literally suggested Jedinak would improve our midfield. A man who couldn't pass or dribble the ball ffs. 

Now thats where I agree with you.....Jedinak, no.......But he did have the ability in the air to help the defence.....not sure dribbling is a pre requisite of a CDM, decent ball control yes.....their main attributes are reading the game, awareness and ability to dispossess, bit of pace and a timely pass out.

back to the game:

Watch the goals back on you tube.....

Ist... goal we was out numbered at the far post just leaving Luiz to master Tarkowski and Mee.....thats not the first time they have done that, it happened at Villa Park, the game before last....they create a mini group......we were just deployed in the middle of the goal...result simple header

2nd...  Tarkowski received the ball from a Cash clearance, played wide to McNeill, cash failed to close him down and he fizzed a ball in, Tarkowski, was in between Konsa and Mings and all 3 missed it, our guys probably fearful of an OG...result, soft goal.

3rd... Mings leaves Wood for the third goal, he is watching McNeill with the ball....he had him at first and then just left him for Targett and moved closer in, away from Woods....result innocuos header from a player with history against us.

It was poor defending for me, but they just use bodies and their muscle to create confusion.

If you look at the approach before all the goals, they were piling forward through the middle, we have to pick up runners much better than what we do....Traore was the main culprit for not doing so.

Dean also said the defending was poor.

its ironic really that both teams failed to deal adequately with crosses.

It just goes to show though, No matter how good a team is technically, they can be undone by stuff that Burnley delve in to......lets be fair man to man we are the better team...maybe Pope might be the exception, but I would still have Emi.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by TRO

[villalad21]

He got bullied yesterday

[QldVilla]

4 hours ago, lexicon said:

@TRO somebody literally suggested Jedinak would improve our midfield. A man who couldn't pass or dribble the ball ffs. 

No I didn’t! I said someone like Jedinak with his physical aggression and game intelligence would of seen the threat of Burnley and started putting them on their backsides.

You missed the analogy completely!

Its what is missing from Luiz game, identifying the threat and getting physical, which is needed in some games.