Douglas Luiz

[QldVilla]

1 minute ago, lexicon said:

I agree that he's not looked himself since the COVID outbreak, but strongly disagree that he's not a natural DM. 

He plays better there than anyone else in the team because he reads the game so well - his positioning is excellent and he so often will snuff out danger by pressing or intercepting because he's in the right place at the right time. It's a very understated skill that often doesn't get picked up on, but it's super important to how we play. 

I didn’t say he doesn’t play the position well, that he’s just not a natural DM. He’s developed his game in the position over the past 12 months, but he would prefer to play further up the pitch. It’s also not to say he won’t develop into a world class DM over the next few years. The one thing I believe he lacks at the moment is the physicality against certain teams.

A Jedinak in his prime would of put some of those Burnley players on their backsides.

[lexicon]

11 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

I didn’t say he doesn’t play the position well, that he’s just not a natural DM. He’s developed his game in the position over the past 12 months, but he would prefer to play further up the pitch. It’s also not to say he won’t develop into a world class DM over the next few years. The one thing I believe he lacks at the moment is the physicality against certain teams.

A Jedinak in his prime would of put some of those Burnley players on their backsides.

It's unusual to come up against teams like Burnley in this day and age - a player like Jedinak would be lost in the prem these days as he just wouldn't be technically proficient enough. Luiz's size doesn't stop him from doing his job and from what I saw in the Newcastle game, he didn't look comfortable being further up the pitch and I don't think he really wants to. He's made that spot his own and he's bloody good at what he does. 

[QldVilla]

Your missing the point that Luiz hasn’t developed a hard edge to his game as a DM. Against some teams you need to have that in your locker.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

33 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

A Jedinak in his prime would of put some of those Burnley players on their backsides.

Indeed.

The types you need in some games.

As much as people say " In the modern game you don't need these ".

All the top teams have one in some form, they can usually cover as CB as last resort.

Man U have Matic

Man City have Fernandinho

Liverpool have Winaljdum/Henderson?

etc.

Edited January 28, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[nick76]

21 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Indeed.

The types you need in some games.

As much as people say " In the modern game you don't need these ".

All the top teams have one in some form, they can usually cover as CB as last resort.

Man U have Matic

Man City have Fernandinho

Liverpool have Winaljdum/Henderson?

etc.

We have Sanson!

[TRO]

2 hours ago, MaVilla said:

i have seen you say it many times, i have said it many times, others prob also, but for all our lovely play etc, we are a fairly soft team and when a team starts making it all dirty harry up in your face, we just cant handle it and dont like it.

I was amazed last night that in the second half when Burnley got even dirtier and in our faces, we seemed to revert to punting and long balls, playing right in to their hands.

As i have said a million times, i like our team going forward, and generally we are much better defensively this season, but we do have a huge issue with physicality, we are a soft side.

Hopefully Sanson can help a little, he's a bit of a McGinn type and will offer some bite,  but Sanson isnt a pure DM, he's a 10 or 8 (like McGinn), also......i like Luiz, but we also need a unit in the middle, maybe have Luiz and also buy a DM unit, then we at least have the option to field a bruiser DM if required, last night we would have benefited from that type of player in the middle.

before someone goes psycho, having a powerful unit in the DM role doesnt mean "they cant play football", ideally i would love a player with Luiz's ability but a good 6ft 3, powerful and athletic DM to at least have the option.

For me, in the summer the two most critical roles to purchase for are DM and AM.

Like you I am maybe pining too much hope on Sanson being combatitive as per his own description.

but you are right, in all you say there.....as an example, if we had a Rice or a Soucek, we could have defended those headers.....they know what they are doing, Dyche has us numbered, he knows our team is filled with talent and "play it first" type of players, the first half spelled that.....but after taking the lead, we haven't got the players with the natural resillience to get ugly and see a game out....He probably said " they don't like it up 'em"

Just like the Leeds game with Jack Harrison having a "field day" down their left ,our right, we was wide open......why didn't Traore or one of the so called CDM's come across to help Cash?......someone watching their first game of football, would have spotted that vulnerability...we was roasted down there and 3 crosses was our undoing......hardly bletchley park stuff, how many times has woods & co done us up like a kipper.

You are spot on, a big unit, can still play football, but they give you other options and weapons to play with......are we saying Pogba, McTominay, Matic, Ndidi, Henderson, Fabinho, Rodri, just to mention a few, can't play football......It would be a failed argument, of course tall players can play, but they have more chance of heading the ball too, protecting defenders and set pieces.....not to mention a threat when we have set pieces.

We need to sign a few more players with a natural instinct for defending first and attacking second......otherwise we will continue to be seen as a soft underbelly.

Last night showed eloquently how far we have come and it is unquestionably delightful......but in contrast, it also showed how far we have to go,too.

Jack last night, continued to showcase, his world class talent.....but he was well pissed off with that showing after he equalised......that cannot continue.

To be honest, I thought we had turned this corner, on resillience, but maybe not.

Edited January 28, 2021 by TRO

[MaVilla]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

Like you I am maybe pining too much hope on Sanson being combatitive as per his own description.

 

i hold hope for Sanson in terms of providing similar to McGinn, Sanson looks very much a McGinn type player, but his attacking instincts are more pronounced that his defensive i think, he would be great i reckon in an 8 role (ie: McGinn - DM - Sanson), or a 10 role (ie: where Barkley currently plays), i think he will offer more steel in the middle as he looks like a terrier, but not as a DM, we need a DM. (or at least another DM option that isnt Luiz/Nakamba size)

i think as of right now, the DM role is the single position where we need major investment, regardless of whether Luiz stays or goes, just my opinion tho.

Completely agree re all the DMs you mentioned, being big doesnt mean not being able to play modern football, but we do need to add some physicality through the spine of the team, as and when needed, we dont have that option right now and it shows.....massively.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, QldVilla said:

Your missing the point that Luiz hasn’t developed a hard edge to his game as a DM. Against some teams you need to have that in your locker.

I would say it is a pre requisite for a CDM.

He is 22, there is still time, but this is something he undoutedly needs to work on.

I get this distinct notion that McGinn and Luiz are too anxious to join in the fun, up front.....They are not blessed with defensive instincts IMO and don't play like them.

[lexicon]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I would say it is a pre requisite for a CDM.

He is 22, there is still time, but this is something he undoutedly needs to work on.

I get this distinct notion that McGinn and Luiz are too anxious to join in the fun, up front.....They are not blessed with defensive instincts IMO and don't play like them.

To be honest and will all due respect, I think the pair of you are living in the past somewhat - pining for some blood and guts lump who'd get sent off every other game nowadays 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

i hold hope for Sanson in terms of providing similar to McGinn, Sanson looks very much a McGinn type player, but his attacking instincts are more pronounced that his defensive i think, he would be great i reckon in an 8 role (ie: McGinn - DM - Sanson), or a 10 role (ie: where Barkley currently plays), i think he will offer more steel in the middle as he looks like a terrier, but not as a DM, we need a DM. (or at least another DM option that isnt Luiz/Nakamba size)

i think as of right now, the DM role is the single position where we need major investment, regardless of whether Luiz stays or goes, just my opinion tho.

Completely agree re all the DMs you mentioned, being big doesnt mean not being able to play modern football, but we do need to add some physicality through the spine of the team, as and when needed, we dont have that option right now and it shows.....massively.

couldn't agree with you more....but to be honest with you......I didn't need last nights performance to highlight it.....I have thought it for some time.

It seems to me in an effort to sign players who are comfortable on the ball, we fail to sign the more physically adept, to the role we are suggesting.....it leaves us vulnerable as last night helped to show.

as an example...would we have signed Soucek....I don't think so.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

4 minutes ago, lexicon said:

To be honest and will all due respect, I think the pair of you are living in the past somewhat - pining for some blood and guts lump who'd get sent off every other game nowadays 

There are big, strong, good in the air modern CDMs who can also play football you know?

I gave a couple of examples earlier in the thread.

Those characteristics don't have to equal clogger.

Edited January 28, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, lexicon said:

To be honest and will all due respect, I think the pair of you are living in the past somewhat - pining for some blood and guts lump who'd get sent off every other game nowadays 

With all due respect to you.....I think modern day football has clouded your judgement....while the game has changed dramatically, some of the fundamentals remain.

The best footballing sides in the world have a version of what we are suggesting.......to make an extreme, its like saying we don't need a centre back or a goal keeper.

To teams that are close to complete, it is an essential ingredient.....I have already rolled out examples of big units who can do the job and still play football....Yaya Toure, do you think and young one of them would get in to the Man City side, Pep would jump at the chance.

I respectfully say to you.....not every player in a balanced side, has to resemble Jack Grealish.....No one loves Jack's talent more than me, but would I have a team full Jacks, NO becuase its unworkable.

If you challenge yourself and ask the question, how many naturally defensive players we have around the first eleven its just 2 mings and Konsa......all the rest have an attacking instinct.

That is a dangerous admission in a hard durable league, where every game is a battle.

Even if you appriase the recent upsurge in 2 teams Spurs and Man city its clear to see why they have improved.......first the resillience and work rate that Mourinho has instilled has transormed Spurs from a swashbuckling side to winners, transforming Harry Kane to a more rounded player along the way......Man City's introduction of Ruben Dias has transformed their fortunes of form in to a similar situation as to when Van Dyck arrived at Liverpool.

In summary.....Defending is a huge,huge, element of becoming a good side.....and thank god, Dean embraced that in his after match disappoinment.

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

There are big, strong, good in the air modern CDMs who can also play football you know?

I gave a couple of examples earlier in the thread.

Those characteristics don't have to equal clogger.

I think it is with a closed mind that folk think that.....Busquets, one of the best CDM's around at one time, was 6'2 and a baller.

[sparrow1988]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think it is with a closed mind that folk think that.....Busquets, one of the best CDM's around at one time, was 6'2 and a baller.

When people mention Busquets they very rarely mention his physicality as a strong point. I don't think it is one of his strengths. A stiff breeze would knock him over.

I think it's worth persevering with Luiz in the role that he is in. I believe it is where his future lies long term. I expect him to develop the physicality required to fulfil the role. He is young and has yet to learn 'all' the tricks of the trade but he's a clever player and I believe that he will.

Some of the best players that have played his position have been 'farts' - Keane, Makelele, Kante, Mascherano, Deschamps, Davids, Gattuso, Cambiasso. However, they didn't really excel until they became streetsmart. Of course you have your big 'uns - Vieira, Simeone, De Rossi, Redondo but there one thing that connects all of these players. They could play. Luiz can too and will IMO become an outstanding DM and if he stays with us will be the 6 in this team in to the future.

In the meantime until he is the finished unit and also in general, a player similar to Matic, or a bigger version of Nakamba, would be nice in order to complement Luiz when teams decide they are going to mix it up physically. However in 9 matches out of 10 I would still go with Luiz.

[Zatman]

3 hours ago, Steero113 said:

That's what I'm saying. He has a permit therefore he would be an easy xfer for City to make in terms of cheap fee and bureaucracy. Other targets (especially from EU) will be much harder at the moment if Covid-19 goes on into the summer and the immigrations rules arn't cleared up.  

we got a permit for Sanson who has no French caps, I am sure City will have no problem getting a work permit. Sure Ferguson used to get permits for players that didnt deserve one at the time

[Zatman]

44 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think it is with a closed mind that folk think that.....Busquets, one of the best CDM's around at one time, was 6'2 and a baller.

classic tough guy

 

 

[Pez1974]

19 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

When people mention Busquets they very rarely mention his physicality as a strong point. I don't think it is one of his strengths. A stiff breeze would knock him over.

I think it's worth persevering with Luiz in the role that he is in. I believe it is where his future lies long term. I expect him to develop the physicality required to fulfil the role. He is young and has yet to learn 'all' the tricks of the trade but he's a clever player and I believe that he will.

Some of the best players that have played his position have been 'farts' - Keane, Makelele, Kante, Mascherano, Deschamps, Davids, Gattuso, Cambiasso. However, they didn't really excel until they became streetsmart. Of course you have your big 'uns - Vieira, Simeone, De Rossi, Redondo but there one thing that connects all of these players. They could play. Luiz can too and will IMO become an outstanding DM and if he stays with us will be the 6 in this team in to the future.

In the meantime until he is the finished unit and also in general, a player similar to Matic, or a bigger version of Nakamba, would be nice in order to complement Luiz when teams decide they are going to mix it up physically. However in 9 matches out of 10 I would still go with Luiz.

Don't confuse strength with shithousery - Busquets was one of the biggest shit houses around (and smart with it); he could mix it when he needed to.
Pogba is built like a brick privy, but give him a hard stare in the penalty area, he goes down quicker....well, you know.

I think a lot of our team are still a bit 'green' in the dark arts. Except Jack. But we have the youngest average age in the league; no-one should be writing anybody off yet. Unless they're called Henri. 

[Zatman]

5 minutes ago, Pez1974 said:

Don't confuse strength with shithousery - Busquets was one of the biggest shit houses around (and smart with it); he could mix it when he needed to.
Pogba is built like a brick privy, but give him a hard stare in the penalty area, he goes down quicker....well, you know.

I think a lot of our team are still a bit 'green' in the dark arts. Except Jack. But we have the youngest average age in the league; no-one should be writing anybody off yet. Unless they're called Henri. 

pretty sure Cash and Dougie have picked up a few yellow cards for cynical tackles on halfway

[sparrow1988]

12 minutes ago, Pez1974 said:

Don't confuse strength with shithousery - Busquets was one of the biggest shit houses around (and smart with it); he could mix it when he needed to.
Pogba is built like a brick privy, but give him a hard stare in the penalty area, he goes down quicker....well, you know.

I think a lot of our team are still a bit 'green' in the dark arts. Except Jack. But we have the youngest average age in the league; no-one should be writing anybody off yet. Unless they're called Henri. 

I'm not. He is one of the best at shithousing but my point was his game was never built on physicality. This has been found out recently as Barca's midfield has been constantly overrun with the physicality of the modern game. They could cope with it 8 - 10 years ago because they had Xavi and Iniesta who never gave away the ball. With a lower quality of player Busquets hasn't been afforded the luxury that he had before and has looked lost as the opposition run around akin to something like a ball in a pinball machine where as he just stands there powerless like an exposed King on a chess board.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, lexicon said:

To be honest and will all due respect, I think the pair of you are living in the past somewhat - pining for some blood and guts lump who'd get sent off every other game nowadays 

Did you watch Burnley....did you glean anything from what they did.

This was a team totally outplayed in on eperiod of the game, who dug deep to get the win.....is nothing in what they did, to convince you we are lacking in a certain area.

just in case you missed it....they were the ones who came out with the 3 points.