Stevo985 Posted February 17, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted February 17, 2020 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: 'Apart from all the racism, he's a great dinner companion' 'Apart from all the hairs, it was an excellent sandwich' I agree with you. In some lights you could say 'apart from two catastrophic errors, he actually had quite a good game' but that isn't very meaningful, because the two catastrophic errors really matter. Exactly. It's unfortunate, because other positions have the luxury of getting away with mistakes. If a striker has a great game and scores two goals, but misses an open goal for his hat trick, people don't really mind (ok unless it would have been the winner, but you get my point) Keepers and defenders don't really have that luxury. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: 'Apart from all the racism, he's a great dinner companion' 'Apart from all the hairs, it was an excellent sandwich' I agree with you. In some lights you could say 'apart from two catastrophic errors, he actually had quite a good game' but that isn't very meaningful, because the two catastrophic errors really matter. When was the last time we had a defender gift two goals in the same game? Not just allow decent chances but literally give them 2 goals? He could have played like Baresi for the rest of the game and it would still be a poor performance when you give the opposition 2 goals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 The most frustrating thing about our three defenders, including Engels, is that they all have their individual qualities, but none are the full ticket. Engels is good on the ball, ok in the air and reads the game very well. His lack of pace though is so obvious, it just outweighs any of his positives. I'm not sure you can be this slow and make it at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Delphinho123 said: The most frustrating thing about our three defenders, including Engels, is that they all have their individual qualities, but none are the full ticket. Engels is good on the ball, ok in the air and reads the game very well. His lack of pace though is so obvious, it just outweighs any of his positives. I'm not sure you can be this slow and make it at this level. It's particularly obvious in that position and against the likes of Moura, Son who are really rapid. It was a clear game plan from Mourinho from min 1. The final mistake is so frustrating because he actually played really well the rest of the game. It's not a pen for me. I was still stewing on that mistake at 11pm last night so I dread to think how he's feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said: The most frustrating thing about our three defenders, including Engels, is that they all have their individual qualities, but none are the full ticket. Engels is good on the ball, ok in the air and reads the game very well. His lack of pace though is so obvious, it just outweighs any of his positives. I'm not sure you can be this slow and make it at this level. For some reason that lack of pace wasn't exposed for awhile. But once it was, it seems to be the defining thing that causes him to now struggle at this level. Edited February 17, 2020 by DCJonah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 31 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: 'Apart from all the racism, he's a great dinner companion' 'Apart from all the hairs, it was an excellent sandwich' I agree with you. In some lights you could say 'apart from two catastrophic errors, he actually had quite a good game' but that isn't very meaningful, because the two catastrophic errors really matter. That’s a terrible analogy. Presumably, someone who is a racist and does nothing to stop being racist will continue to be racist and say racist things. How is that the same as someone making two costly errors in one game, even though they’ve played plenty of games for us where they haven’t made costly errors? Just because Engels gave away a penalty and a 1-on-1 yesterday doesn’t mean he’ll do it again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Silvers Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 26 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said: The most frustrating thing about our three defenders, including Engels, is that they all have their individual qualities, but none are the full ticket. Engels is good on the ball, ok in the air and reads the game very well. His lack of pace though is so obvious, it just outweighs any of his positives. I'm not sure you can be this slow and make it at this level. coaching and strategy should be able to fix all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rob182 said: That’s a terrible analogy. Presumably, someone who is a racist and does nothing to stop being racist will continue to be racist and say racist things. How is that the same as someone making two costly errors in one game, even though they’ve played plenty of games for us where they haven’t made costly errors? Just because Engels gave away a penalty and a 1-on-1 yesterday doesn’t mean he’ll do it again. It's a jokey analogy that's not meant to be taken entirely seriously, but to answer those points: firstly, if I have dinner with someone three times, and they only say racist things once, it would still be a problem for me that they did that. And secondly, of course we can't be sure that Engels will make a similar mistake again, but frankly it is more likely than it would be for a player who has never made a similar mistake. We have to price into our knowledge of Engels-as-a-footballer that he is capable of complete howlers, because we have now seen it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 He cost 7 million quid ffs, of course he's going to make a few mistakes here and there. For my money, it was only one yesterday - for the winner - as the pen was a ridiculously harsh call and could have happened to tons of good CBs. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: It's a jokey analogy that's not meant to be taken entirely seriously, but to answer those points: firstly, if I have dinner with someone three times, and they only say racist things once, it would still be a problem for me that they did that. And secondly, of course we can't be sure that Engels will make a similar mistake again, but frankly it is more likely than it would be for a player who has never made a similar mistake. We have to price into our knowledge of Engels-as-a-footballer that he is capable of complete howlers, because we have now seen it happen. But likewise, we’ve seen Mings, Hause and Konsa all have howlers, but because they’ve had recent, extended runs in the team, they’re not the ones being asked to be dropped, but Engels is. This is my point. In my opinion, aside from the two terrible errors, Engels’ general play was good. Obviously this is completely subjective, but I thought he was better with and without the ball than Konsa and Hause. But some people seem to want the two mistakes to be their lasting impression of Engels, and I think that is a short-sighted way of looking at things. It’s a little like when Taylor was getting in ahead of Targett. Targett came into the team and got injured and some people said “he’s lightweight! We should stick with Taylor, who’s better defensively anyway!”.... It was short-sighted to view one mistake or injury as the one thing that defines how a player performed. Targett fits our style of play better, and in my opinion, Engels fits our style of play better. Similar to how Targett hasn’t continued to get injured as often as some first feared, I don’t think Engels will make those blunders after the rustiness has gone away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 His last start was Southampton before christmas. Go and watch their first goal in that game, simple ball over the top and treading water. It's no surprise that was his last start and he was not going to play yesterday until Mings was pulled out. There's clearly reasons Smith hasn't been picking him and I'll be amazed if he keeps his place next week. He has some qualities, but I worry he's not cut out for this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 He is a good player Engels, although his lack of pace will always be a concern and I do feel he often has a mistake in him. Needs to be 4th choice for now, or try him over Konsa on the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, lexicon said: He cost 7 million quid ffs, of course he's going to make a few mistakes here and there. For my money, it was only one yesterday - for the winner - as the pen was a ridiculously harsh call and could have happened to tons of good CBs. Was such a blatant pen. Clear as day from the Holte (although many around me struggled to see that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Tom13 said: Was such a blatant pen. Clear as day from the Holte (although many around me struggled to see that). So clear that neither the lino, nor the ref, gave it and Bergwijn didn't even appeal? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Think we need to return to a back 4, with Engels partnering Mings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, lexicon said: So clear that neither the lino, nor the ref, gave it and Bergwijn didn't even appeal? Pretty sure he did appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir_gary_cahill Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, vreitti said: Think we need to return to a back 4, with Engels partnering Mings. Agree with this, any idea how long Mings is out for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 1 minute ago, sir_gary_cahill said: Agree with this, any idea how long Mings is out for? Apparently he was just ill, so hopefully he's back against S'ton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, Tom13 said: Was such a blatant pen. Clear as day from the Holte (although many around me struggled to see that). I was in the Holte, directly in line with the apparent offence and no way was that a pen at the time. Seeing the replays last night and slow motion you could argue 50/50 but VAR rules says overturning on-field decision must be clear and obvious and that wasn’t. It was the wrong call. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Just now, nick76 said: I was in the Holte, directly in line with the apparent offence and no way was that a pen at the time. Seeing the replays last night and slow motion you could argue 50/50 but VAR rules says overturning on-field decision must be clear and obvious and that wasn’t. It was the wrong call. Definitely wasn't. Took the man, then luckily made contact with the ball. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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