StewieGriffin Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Wesley ain't the answer guys Depends what the question is. If the question is "who is currently our most viable alternative to Watkins?" the Wesley is the answer. I like him, I think he has the potential to be a good player for us. Hopefully his injury may benefit him/us as it might add that bit of "oomph" that was, at times, missing 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Wesley ain't the answer guys There’s no question. We’re a team progressing season on season, not a team in crisis. It’s good to see him back. Edited March 10, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, StewieGriffin said: Depends what the question is. If the question is "who is currently our most viable alternative to Watkins?" the Wesley is the answer. Nope, wrong. Try again. Edited March 11, 2021 by KenjiOgiwara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 2 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Nope, wrong. Try again. I assume you say this because he’s not match fit? When match fit then the choice of back up to Ollie is Wes, Davis, Traore and Barry....so obviously Wes is the best viable alternative to Ollie out of that four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 If anyone thinks Davis is a better alternative than a fit Wes then they are forgetting he had his chance last season when he started or featured in quite a lot of games. Yes he played in a struggling team but I remember he missed some very big chances. Maybe if he had took one of them it could have launched his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 52 minutes ago, nick76 said: I assume you say this because he’s not match fit? When match fit then the choice of back up to Ollie is Wes, Davis, Traore and Barry....so obviously Wes is the best viable alternative to Ollie out of that four. No I'm saying that cause Wesley has done nothing to suggest he's a better alternative than Davis. I could go on a 10 minute post about why Wesley is the most negative, backpassing, soft targetman I've ever seen. When ever he could be direct, he wasn't. He was never in the box when he should have been and his general play had the urgency of a dying dog. He scored a handful of goals because he was allowed to play every single match despite being utter shite, and while doing so he had the genius of Jack Grealish serving him balls. And so on. But I won't. The main point here is tactics. We need a striker that digs in and helps out our midfield when we attack. We have a bunch of midfielders that score a lot, but it's often very dependant on Ollie's work. Wesley have never put in that sort of shift. Davis does, every single time. Wesley might have made something out of Barkley's role, if he didn't get injured. Playing deeper suits his attributes much better. But personally I don't think he'll ever make it here now. Those injuries is very hard to get back from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 24 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: No I'm saying that cause Wesley has done nothing to suggest he's a better alternative than Davis. I could go on a 10 minute post about why Wesley is the most negative, backpassing, soft targetman I've ever seen. When ever he could be direct, he wasn't. He was never in the box when he should have been and his general play had the urgency of a dying dog. He scored a handful of goals because he was allowed to play every single match despite being utter shite, and while doing so he had the genius of Jack Grealish serving him balls. And so on. But I won't. The main point here is tactics. We need a striker that digs in and helps out our midfield when we attack. We have a bunch of midfielders that score a lot, but it's often very dependant on Ollie's work. Wesley have never put in that sort of shift. Davis does, every single time. Wesley might have made something out of Barkley's role, if he didn't get injured. Playing deeper suits his attributes much better. But personally I don't think he'll ever make it here now. Those injuries is very hard to get back from. I think you’ll be in the minority that think Davis is a better alternative than Wes. Whatever you think Davis’ potential is and whatever downside on Wes you think, it still puts Wes way ahead of Davis. Wes, your now guessing you think he won’t make it here, I think he will. Davis we can see isn’t going to make it here under Smith given how little time Davis gets despite being the only back up. With Wes coming back and Smith seemingly very happy about that, it suggests Davis won’t be at the club much longer either by loan or sold. If Wes doesn’t come back properly from his injury, I’m guessing we’ll be in the market for another striker if we were not already. Either way, Davis is probably down the pecking order and likely to be on the way out in the next couple of windows, and Wes, if he gets fit will still be around and I think that’s the right decision as Wes is several levels better than Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 Wonder if he's in U23 squad for Burnley tomorrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 On 10/03/2021 at 12:00, JamieZ said: At the very least, the Wesleykins portmanteau couple name sounds adorable. I prefer Watley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 15 hours ago, Indigo said: Don't understand the semi-regular suggestions of him playing as a 10 at all. There's no evidence of him ever having played as an attacking midfielder before nor does he really have the attributes for it. Sure he's performed the second striker role previously but there's a sizable difference in being a link man up front that can drop deep to allow runners beyond him and actually starting and playing in midfield. Delighted for him that he's back on the grass anyway. Still a long way for him to go but I have faith that if he can get back to the level he was at he'll not only look better with a more functioning team around him but he'll have better scope to improve because of it. Seems a likeable fella too so I'd love for him to make a success of himself even when taking my Villa hat off. He was literally an attacking midfielder before he signed for Trencin who decided that he should play upfront. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 7 minutes ago, MotoMkali said: He was literally an attacking midfielder before he signed for Trencin who decided that he should play upfront. There was an article when he signed for us that said he "saw himself" as one before he signed for them, yes. Incidentally they were the first club he was signed to as a full-time footballer so as I said there isn't much - if any - evidence that he's ever played as one (as a professional footballer, should that caveat be necessary). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Simon Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: If anyone thinks Davis is a better alternative than a fit Wes then they are forgetting he had his chance last season when he started or featured in quite a lot of games. Yes he played in a struggling team but I remember he missed some very big chances. Maybe if he had took one of them it could have launched his career. The miss against Arsenal at home I feel will end up being a seminal moment. Score that and confidence soars in both himself, and that of other players and fans of him. Drag it wide, it's another missed chance to add to the litany of missed chances. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: No I'm saying that cause Wesley has done nothing to suggest he's a better alternative than Davis. I could go on a 10 minute post about why Wesley is the most negative, backpassing, soft targetman I've ever seen. When ever he could be direct, he wasn't. He was never in the box when he should have been and his general play had the urgency of a dying dog. He scored a handful of goals because he was allowed to play every single match despite being utter shite, and while doing so he had the genius of Jack Grealish serving him balls. And so on. But I won't. The main point here is tactics. We need a striker that digs in and helps out our midfield when we attack. We have a bunch of midfielders that score a lot, but it's often very dependant on Ollie's work. Wesley have never put in that sort of shift. Davis does, every single time. Wesley might have made something out of Barkley's role, if he didn't get injured. Playing deeper suits his attributes much better. But personally I don't think he'll ever make it here now. Those injuries is very hard to get back from. He managed to score a Premier league goal for a start. I get you said it’s because he played a lot of games but so did Davis after lockdown. Not a single goal! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Kingman said: Wonder if he's in U23 squad for Burnley tomorrow? Which we can watch for £2. Wasn’t sure where to post that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted March 11, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said: No I'm saying that cause Wesley has done nothing to suggest he's a better alternative than Davis. I could go on a 10 minute post about why Wesley is the most negative, backpassing, soft targetman I've ever seen. When ever he could be direct, he wasn't. He was never in the box when he should have been and his general play had the urgency of a dying dog. He scored a handful of goals because he was allowed to play every single match despite being utter shite, and while doing so he had the genius of Jack Grealish serving him balls. And so on. But I won't. The main point here is tactics. We need a striker that digs in and helps out our midfield when we attack. We have a bunch of midfielders that score a lot, but it's often very dependant on Ollie's work. Wesley have never put in that sort of shift. Davis does, every single time. Wesley might have made something out of Barkley's role, if he didn't get injured. Playing deeper suits his attributes much better. But personally I don't think he'll ever make it here now. Those injuries is very hard to get back from. Wesley has scored a league goal. 5 in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: If anyone thinks Davis is a better alternative than a fit Wes then they are forgetting he had his chance last season when he started or featured in quite a lot of games. Yes he played in a struggling team but I remember he missed some very big chances. Maybe if he had took one of them it could have launched his career. He started just 4 games and played less than 1/3rd the games Wes did. And Wesley only got to half the season. Both have clear deficiencies in their game when they played for us. But I genuinely think Davis showed more than Wesley did. https://fbref.com/en/players/bfae110f/scout/3232/Wesley-Moraes-Scouting-Report https://fbref.com/en/players/9deaf2c8/scout/365_euro/Keinan-Davis-Scouting-Report Have a look at the shot creation actions and goal-creating action stats both players had last season. It's not even comparable. Davis' is far higher, close to one of the highest in the league in the forward position. Wesley's is closest to the bottom. This is the potential I see in Davis, and before I discovered this site I struggled to really elaborate on. He may have missed at scoring himself but he was involved in quite a few goals himself even if he didn't score or assist himself. To put it bluntly, Davis is a chance creator and as Kenji said the other day, when he gets on the ball we do seem more dangerous. And it also acts as evidence against the idea that Wesley is somehow a chance creator and that's why he doesn't seem like he's an out an out forward. If anything, Davis has a bigger claim to that. I don't feel like I need to rely on stats to make this claim, I feel like it should be self-evident from just watching these two play. Of course the main role of a forward is usually not to create chances, its to score goals.(which is a bit ironic considering one of the defenses people had of Wesley back when he was playing was that he was supposed to be more of a chance creator and not be the primary goalscorer) But Wesley is far from a prolific goalscorer either. Neither are good enough for us for where we want to be from what I've seen, but I see more potential in the guy that's played less than 500 minutes in the PL and showed some strengths than the guy who's played almost 2000 minutes yet I would struggle to point to any strengths he has a forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: He started just 4 games and played less than 1/3rd the games Wes did. And Wesley only got to half the season. Both have clear deficiencies in their game when they played for us. But I genuinely think Davis showed more than Wesley did. https://fbref.com/en/players/bfae110f/scout/3232/Wesley-Moraes-Scouting-Report https://fbref.com/en/players/9deaf2c8/scout/365_euro/Keinan-Davis-Scouting-Report Have a look at the shot creation actions and goal-creating action stats both players had last season. It's not even comparable. Davis' is far higher, close to one of the highest in the league in the forward position. Wesley's is closest to the bottom. This is the potential I see in Davis, and before I discovered this site I struggled to really elaborate on. He may have missed at scoring himself but he was involved in quite a few goals himself even if he didn't score or assist himself. To put it bluntly, Davis is a chance creator and as Kenji said the other day, when he gets on the ball we do seem more dangerous. And it also acts as evidence against the idea that Wesley is somehow a chance creator and that's why he doesn't seem like he's an out an out forward. If anything, Davis has a bigger claim to that. I don't feel like I need to rely on stats to make this claim, I feel like it should be self-evident from just watching these two play. Of course the main role of a forward is usually not to create chances, its to score goals.(which is a bit ironic considering one of the defenses people had of Wesley back when he was playing was that he was supposed to be more of a chance creator and not be the primary goalscorer) But Wesley is far from a prolific goalscorer either. Neither are good enough for us for where we want to be from what I've seen, but I see more potential in the guy that's played less than 500 minutes in the PL and showed some strengths than the guy who's played almost 2000 minutes yet I would struggle to point to any strengths he has a forward. I think he could play a whole season and still not score. But I do agree he seemed to offer more overall than Wesley did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted March 11, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) Wesley 21 League appearances 5 goals 1 assist Davis 25 League appearances 0 goals 0 assists Edited March 11, 2021 by HKP90 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: He started just 4 games and played less than 1/3rd the games Wes did. And Wesley only got to half the season. Both have clear deficiencies in their game when they played for us. But I genuinely think Davis showed more than Wesley did. https://fbref.com/en/players/bfae110f/scout/3232/Wesley-Moraes-Scouting-Report https://fbref.com/en/players/9deaf2c8/scout/365_euro/Keinan-Davis-Scouting-Report Have a look at the shot creation actions and goal-creating action stats both players had last season. It's not even comparable. Davis' is far higher, close to one of the highest in the league in the forward position. Wesley's is closest to the bottom. This is the potential I see in Davis, and before I discovered this site I struggled to really elaborate on. He may have missed at scoring himself but he was involved in quite a few goals himself even if he didn't score or assist himself. To put it bluntly, Davis is a chance creator and as Kenji said the other day, when he gets on the ball we do seem more dangerous. And it also acts as evidence against the idea that Wesley is somehow a chance creator and that's why he doesn't seem like he's an out an out forward. If anything, Davis has a bigger claim to that. I don't feel like I need to rely on stats to make this claim, I feel like it should be self-evident from just watching these two play. Of course the main role of a forward is usually not to create chances, its to score goals.(which is a bit ironic considering one of the defenses people had of Wesley back when he was playing was that he was supposed to be more of a chance creator and not be the primary goalscorer) But Wesley is far from a prolific goalscorer either. Neither are good enough for us for where we want to be from what I've seen, but I see more potential in the guy that's played less than 500 minutes in the PL and showed some strengths than the guy who's played almost 2000 minutes yet I would struggle to point to any strengths he has a forward. It’s great that you’ve tried to put a positive spin on Davis over Wes and I applaud your effort in trying but we know in reality that Wes is the better player and he has more likely a future at Villa than Davis. While that isn’t fact, every indication that through lack of game time that it’s unlikely Davis has a future at Villa whereas that is unknown for Wes, and it seems Smith is keen to have him back. My personal opinion is that Wes is head and shoulders above Davis, it’s not even close. Davis still lacks in goals and further in assists. Just because Davis was on the pitch doesn’t mean he was involved in the eventual goal despite you trying to angle that in as a positive because he wasn’t credited with an assist or goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 I don’t think Wes is that much better than Davis. I think they’re both pretty pants to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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