Wesley Moraes

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

15 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

 

Wesley 344 minutes per goal

Jordan Ayew 303 minutes per goal

Sebastian Haller 298 minutes per goal

Now there's a massive gap about here

Anthony Martial 193 minutes per goal

Riyad Mahrez 165 minutes per goal

Gabriel Jesus 145 minutes per goal

Alexandre Lacazette 132 minutes per goal

Lys Moussette 118 minutes per goal.

 

 

 

 

You notice as the quality of the teams they play for gets higher, the lower their minutes to goals ratio seem to trend, very strange that .

I know who Mousette plays for so just leave that.

Edited December 11, 2019 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[KenjiOgiwara]

It's fine mate. Your reaction and initial response says it all. Raging on for no reason doesn't improve your argument here. 

Next time someone points out you're talking bollocks just accept it uf it's true and move on. 

 

[MotoMkali]

16 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Ah yeah, I think you're clearly reaching here the moment you tried comparing a centre forward to midfielders. Who the **** compares Wesley to the likes of Kevin De Bruyne in terms of goals? KDB is an assister, he's not mainly a goalscorer as shown by the fact that he has 8 more assists than Wesley in the PL. 

Now okay I concede, that you did name a couple of forwards in that list but now I will list all these players in terms of minutes per goal.

Wesley 344 minutes per goal

Jordan Ayew 303 minutes per goal

Sebastian Haller 298 minutes per goal

Now there's a massive gap about here

Anthony Martial 193 minutes per goal

Riyad Mahrez 165 minutes per goal

Gabriel Jesus 145 minutes per goal

Alexandre Lacazette 132 minutes per goal

Lys Moussette 118 minutes per goal.

 

As shown here, he is absolutely no where near the likes of Martial, Jesus, Mahrez, Lacazette and Moussette so comparisons to them are silly. In fact, the only players who are comparable to him in terms of goal scoring ability are Ayew and Haller but I think there's argument to say both of these aren't playing to the PL standard either, especially Haller who should be doing more considering his price tag(Sorry that is a terrible goal minute per goal ratio for a 45 million pound rated forward). So again, comparing players to other players who are underperforming and using that as argument to say Wesley is playing okay is silly.

 

 

On the other hand there also happens to be a massive gap in league position. Where is Firminho? In goals to minutes because that is really who we want wesley to be and I imagine it is likely quite similar maybe 10-20 minutes off. Edit: to be clear although Firminho has 3 more assists than wesley Liverpool have scored 17 more goals than us (wesley goal or assist in 23% of our goals, Firminho 20% of their goals) mane and salah have combined for 16 goals 9 more than our starting wingers who a central striker is most likely to assist. 

And why can't I compare the number of goals wesley has scored to de bruyne? He is considered to be the best player in the league and plays in the best attacking side in the league. Just because de bruyne doesn't play in that position. I mean you could say comparing pogba to josh King (this is from last season) is an unfair comparison. But pogba played in a better side than king and scored more goals. Would you say josh King is bad and can't score goals? Now de bruyne is a much better than pogba and when they were both healthy de bruyne scored 2 more goals than him so I think

Edited December 11, 2019 by MotoMkali

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

2 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

It's fine mate. Your reaction and initial response says it all. Raging on for no reason doesn't improve your argument here. 

Next time someone points out you're talking bollocks just accept it uf it's true and move on. 

 

I'm convinced you live in a parralel universe with your own thoughts.

Again I'm dumfounded that someone who has come out with the absolute shite you did a few pages ago is so confident in your ability to point out bollox

"Just accept that it's true and move on" what in the absolute f*ck . I'm dying here.

[Laughable Chimp]

14 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

On the other hand there also happens to be a massive gap in league position. Where is Firminho? In goals to minutes because that is really who we want wesley to be and I imagine it is likely quite similar maybe 10-20 minutes off.

And why can't I compare the number of goals wesley has scored to de bruyne? He is considered to be the best player in the league and plays in the best attacking side in the league. Just because de bruyne doesn't play in that position. I mean you could say comparing pogba to josh King (this is from last season) is an unfair comparison. But pogba played in a better side than king and scored more goals. Would you say josh King is bad and can't score goals? Now de bruyne is a much better than pogba and when they were both healthy de bruyne scored 2 more goals than him so I think

No, just no. You cannot compare Kevin de Bruyne who is a midfielder who's primary game is about making assists in terms of goals with Wesley to say Wesley has been ookay at scoring goals. That is just wrong and just allows you to paint a false picture of how good a player is. If you want, you can compare their goal or assist ratio together because you take into account both. That would but KDB at 94 minutes per goal/assist. Wesley's is somwhere in the 280s I think. Again, not in the same league.

I added Firmino into my post earlier via edit. I forgot to include him.

Lastly, yes obviously the forwards who are lower down the list are more likely going to be playing for teams higher up the league, because by virtue of their good goal scoring their teams are gonna be higher up the league,

The list below has most of them. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/torschuetzenliste/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/1?saison_id=2019&detailpos=14&altersklasse=alle

However, this doesn't excuse Wesley as our entire team still does get chances to score and Villa last I checked were creating a lot of the chances in the league.

Edit: Hope nobody saw that mistake.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Laughable Chimp

[KenjiOgiwara]

10 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I'm convinced you live in a parralel universe with your own thoughts.

Again I'm dumfounded that someone who has come out with the absolute shite you did a few pages ago is so confident in your ability to point out bollox

"Just accept that it's true and move on" what in the absolute f*ck . I'm dying here.

Why don't you explain how you're right about something obviously untrue then, instead of getting all wound up like a 12 year old. 

[MotoMkali]

15 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

No, just no. You cannot compare Kevin de Bruyne who is a midfielder who's primary game is about making assists in terms of goals with Wesley to say Wesley has been ookay at scoring goals. That is just wrong and just allows you to paint a false picture of how good a player is. If you want, you can compare their goal or assist ratio together because you take into account both. That would but KDB at 94 minutes per goal/assist. Wesley's is somwhere in the 280s I think. Again, not in the same league.

I added Firmino into my post earlier via edit. I forgot to include him.

Lastly, yes obviously the forwards who are lower down the list are more likely going to be playing for teams higher up the league, because by virtue of their good goal scoring their teams are gonna be higher up the league. Notice that's not true of everyone, Firmino has a poor scoring record despite playing for Liverpool and Mousset has a great scoring record despite playing for Southampton. However, this doesn't excuse Wesley as our entire team still does get chances to score and Villa last I checked were creating a lot of the chances in the league. 

Mousset plays for the blades and because he rotates with their other strikers he will remain fresh throughout the season which cannot be said for wesley. Same for any other striker with low goals to minute ratio. That tells me that they have a decent backup who can play 30 minutes here or there and likely started over them 4 or 5 times. It is easier to score when your opponents are tired. Edit: Also other strikers get to be replaced after they have done the job whereas wesley will pretty much always play the full 90. 

If you want other striker and winger comparisons Wesley has scored more than: Mcburnie, joelinton, pepe, Benteke, Connolly, Kean, Solanke, Yarmalenko, Andre Gray. 

We have created a lot of chances but our last 7 games we have played the top 6 and have only scored 8 goals. We will see more representative play from wesley over the next 4 games where goals will come easier to us and he is more likely to score.

And again you can compare him to De bruyne because whilst De bruyne is leading the league in assists goalscoring is a big part of his game. He is recognised as one of the best long shot takers in the world so being unable to compare a striker in a struggling team to an important goal scorer on a free scoring team is reasonable. For percentage of goals involved in for De bruyne 29.5%, Wesley 22% and debruyne you know best player on Man City. Grealish for comparison has 35%

Edited December 11, 2019 by MotoMkali

[It's Your Round]

I hope Wesley scores the winner on Saturday and this thread gets accidentally deleted.

[Keyblade]

4 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

"Can't pass, can't run, can't shoot, can't trap a ball, has ZERO footballing ability"

In before the "yeah he did it in a horrendous league against terrible defenses".

That ain't the point, it's either he has ZERO footballing ability or he does. It's either he is capable of doing those things or he can't.

Although a Villa fan on fan cams did claim he couldn't score against Under 9s. Which would make more sense if he hadn't already scored.

No I'm not trying to pretend like he has been good either, but I'm not going for the absolute hyperbole surrounding the lad and the total disregard for how the performance of the rest of the team and confidence might me affecting him.

To say he needs to be dropped as he ain't doing it is one thing, to dramatically claim he is absolutely useless and will NEVER amount to anything is another.

The other classic I saw was "He was just lucky to be in the right place at the right time for his goals (tap in - which was of course pointed out)". Which doesn't even make sense as in the same breath the poster said him never being in the right place was one of the problems

I honestly think the issue is the step up in quality. He was great in preseason against lower league opposition and in select games this season against woeful defences like Norwich, Everton and 10-man Brighton. I think it's a matter of adjusting to the league... hopefully anyway. It takes different players different amounts of time. McGinn for example was at it from day 1. It took Jack 5 or 6 games, Anwar 6 or 7.

Looks like Wes and Trez have yet to adjust but there is talent there with both of them. Just hope we sign players to relieve them of the pressures. It can't be easy trying to get a footing in the league while also having all the burden on your shoulders. It's like starting a new job and being made the lead of a project straight away before you've even had an orientation or training.

[Dave-R]

This Wesley debate has everything needed to be talked about in the houses of parliament.

Wesley most likely won't become on point till his second season, that's the reality of it all and that's fine so long as we bring in someone else.  Then again if we go through it all again with our January strikers it is crystal clear it's more than a servicing problem, that we need to take action to bring in some real quality wingers who can cross properly.

The fault does not lie with just Wes, our wingers especially Ghazi have found real trouble in finishing at close range, what Ghazi on now four missed close range shots that should 100% of been goals. It's running through the team really that our conversion rate is way down compared to other teams in our league. We need sharp edged shots not blunt ones. That Leicester game proved how much we really lack on finishing above all else if, we had of fired everything in we would of won many of our games but we really do miss a mountain of chances per game and Smith's style requires a squad who outscored there opponents. 

[Laughable Chimp]

12 minutes ago, Dave-R said:

This Wesley debate has everything needed to be talked about in the houses of parliament.

Wesley most likely won't become on point till his second season, that's the reality of it all and that's fine so long as we bring in someone else.  Then again if we go through it all again with our January strikers it is crystal clear it's more than a servicing problem, that we need to take action to bring in some real quality wingers who can cross properly.

The fault does not lie with just Wes, our wingers especially Ghazi have found real trouble in finishing at close range, what Ghazi on now four missed close range shots that should 100% of been goals. It's running through the team really that our conversion rate is way down compared to other teams in our league. We need sharp edged shots not blunt ones. That Leicester game proved how much we really lack on finishing above all else if, we had of fired everything in we would of won many of our games but we really do miss a mountain of chances per game and Smith's style requires a squad who outscored there opponents. 

I feel like the amount of sitters El Ghazi has actually missed is overstated. The only one that to me, qualifies as a sitter is the one he missed at Leicester.

You can look at the difference between expected goals and goals as a measure of how clinical our players have been. In terms of chance conversion, El Ghazi's goals talley is 0.89 lower than his expected goals, which is not good but not that bad either. Trezeguet and Grealish have a higher goals talley than expected goals talley which means they've actually been doing well in converting chances. Its Wesley who has by far the largest difference between his expected goals and goals stat at 2.05 which suggests he's been doing the worse in converting his chances.

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Laughable Chimp

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Why don't you explain how you're right about something obviously untrue then, instead of getting all wound up like a 12 year old. 

You want me to explain why you "having some great plays and scoring some great goals against semi - professional footballers" proves that Wesley has no football ability, can't trap, score, run, shoot or dribble and will never offer anything to the team (Because he hasn't done much here so far - 16 Premier League games in a sporadically performing team, with a number of poor performers throughout) in reference to the video and post I made about him having success previously at a professional level for years, against other professional football players and a few times already with us in this League?

This is a circular argument.

It means that you had some "great plays and scored some great goals" against semi pro footballers, so potentially have some footballing ability against semi - pro footballers given a favorable set of circumstances including but not limited to age, fitness, team, opposition etc.... AND that Wesley has had success previously against other FULL professional  footballers consistently in what you call an inferior league and in the Champions League, so has proven that he has football ability against professional football players given a favorable set of circumstances etc?. An "inferior League" which a number of other top players have come over here from - either way i'm pretty sure you get the point but you are so stubborn in your buffoonery that again this is a pointless process.

If we want to get petty, it shows that he can "trap a ball, run, score, pass, etc at minimum" opposition aside, which you and a few others have claimed he can't do, which i'm convinced you actually know is horseshit but need to exasperate for effect.

Can't believe i'm even going down this nonsensical wormhole.

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[PieFacE]

4 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You want me to explain why you "having some great plays and scoring some great goals against semi - professional footballers" proves that Wesley has no football ability, can't trap, score, run, shoot or dribble and will never offer anything to the team (Because he hasn't done much here so far - 16 Premier League games in a sporadically performing team, with a number of poor performers throughout) in reference to the video and post I made about him having success previously at a professional level for years, against other professional football players and a few times already with us in this League?

This is a circular argument.

It means that you had some "great plays and scored some great goals" against semi pro footballers, so potentially have some footballing ability against semi - pro footballers given a favorable set of circumstances including but not limited to age, fitness, team, opposition etc.... AND that Wesley has had success previously against other FULL professional footballers in what you call an inferior league and in the Champions League, so has proven that he has football ability against professional football players given a favorable set of circumstances etc?. An "inferior League" which a number of other top players have come over here from - either way i'm pretty sure you get the point but you are so stubborn in your buffoonery that again this is a pointless process.

If we want to get petty, it shows that he can "trap a ball, run, score, pass, etc" opposition aside, which you and a few others have claimed he can't do, which i'm convinced you actually know is horseshit but need to exasperate for effect.

Can't believe i'm even going down this nonsensical wormhole.

 

Dunno how you have the energy. The hyperbole in this thread is crazy. 

[KenjiOgiwara]

Just now, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You want me to explain why you "having some great plays and scoring some great goals against semi - professional footballers" proves that Wesley has no football ability, can't trap, score, run, shoot or dribble and will never offer anything to the team (Because he hasn't done much here so far - 16 Premier League games in a sporadically performing team, with a number of poor performers throughout) in reference to the video and post I made about him having success previously at a professional level for years, against other professional football players and a few times already with us in this League?

This is a circular argument.

It means that you had some "great plays and scored some great goals" against semi pro footballers, so potentially have some footballing ability against semi - pro footballers given a favorable set of circumstances including but not limited to age, fitness, team, opposition etc.... AND that Wesley has had success previously against other FULL professional footballers in what you call an inferior league and in the Champions League, so has proven that he has football ability against professional football players given a favorable set of circumstances etc?. An "inferior League" which a number of other top players have come over here from - either way i'm pretty sure you get the point but you are so stubborn in your buffoonery that again this is a pointless process.

If we want to get petty, it shows that he can "trap a ball, run, score, pass, etc" opposition aside, which you and a few others have claimed he can't do, which i'm convinced you actually know is horseshit but need to exasperate for effect.

Can't believe i'm even going down this nonsensical wormhole.

 

No.

You said and I quote "That ain't the point, it's either he has ZERO footballing ability or he does. It's either he is capable of doing those things or he can't."

And I proved that's relative to the quality you're facing and just not true. 

It's not completely unlikely he can develop further, but the idea he's capable of doing this in the PL just because he did it in a tin pot league doesn't make it so. 

You seem to think playing for a weak ass team in the CL or playing in a mickey mouse league and doing alright (he wasn't even doing very good), some how indicates an ability that's transferable to the PL. Only problem is that's not how things work. If that's the case we could save a lot of money and just buy a few random names from the Scandinavian leagues. 

[VillaCas]

You can post all the “aerial duels won”, “most defensive clearances” and “minutes per goals” stats you like, but it’s absolutely clear that Wesley is far and away our worst player, is a massive disappointment and shows no signs at all of approaching the standard required

I hope he improves and I hope I’m proved very wrong, but if he is still our first choice CF this time next year I’ll been hugely surprised 

[KenjiOgiwara]

2 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

You can post all the “aerial duels won”, “most defensive clearances” and “minutes per goals” stats you like, but it’s absolutely clear that Wesley is far and away our worst player, is a massive disappointment and shows no signs at all of approaching the standard required

I hope he improves and I hope I’m proved very wrong, but if he is still our first choice CF this time next year I’ll been hugely surprised 

It's not very likely we're a PL team next season if we don't replace him in January. We are unfortunately at that point. This league is tough enough as it is, without starting every match with 10 players. 

We might make it cause our midfield chips in with a lot of goals, but we're not making it easy for ourselves. Fortunately I think personally we will stay up on what I've seen so far this season. But that will be in spite of Wes, not because we have him. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

3 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

No.

You said and I quote "That ain't the point, it's either he has ZERO footballing ability or he does. It's either he is capable of doing those things or he can't."

And I proved that's relative to the quality you're facing and just not true. 

It's not completely unlikely he can develop further, but the idea he's capable of doing this in the PL just because he did it in a tin pot league doesn't make it so. 

You seem to think playing for a weak ass team in the CL or playing in a mickey mouse league and doing alright (he wasn't even doing very good), some how indicates an ability that's transferable to the PL. Only problem is that's not how things work. If that's the case we could save a lot of money and just buy a few random names from the Scandinavian leagues. 

[KenjiOgiwara]

The famous GIF for I have **** all sensible to say. Good we are now there. 

[VillanousOne]

The truth lies somewhere in the middle of all opinions.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

The famous GIF for I have **** all sensible to say. Good we are now there. 

You just love baiting an argument don't you, you think people have all day to beat their head against a wall? 

No it means there are only so many times i'm willing to do this pathetic circle dance with you...

Nor do I have the time to start writing essays back and forth with you....

It's now gone from him having ZERO footballing ability, not being able to pass, trap a ball or score "what did the scouts see, pub player at best" to "Well ok he has some football ability but only against shit opposition" and so it is not possible for him to have it here. At Norwich and Everton he actually wasn't that good, just got lucky to be where he was and score a couple of tap ins...

McGinn is currently on a terrible run of form, i'm guessing this also proves that he only looked good against Scottish teams and Championship opposition, so is now coming back down to his level.

To which you will then respond "But McGinn has been brilliant for us for a season and change, and you can see he has Football ability", yeah but he has only shown it for 4, 5 games up here? Was brilliant in the Championship for what... 50, 60 odd games? (WESLEY HAS PLAYED A TOTAL OF 16 GAMES IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE)

However, we keep faith in him, and think he is just on a dip of form because he has demonstrated great footballing ability, and been a star for us in a couple of "Shit Leagues - using your words now" (SPL/Championship).

Before you respond with anything stupid, this is just an example, or reference, doesn't mean I now want you to delve into John McGinn.

I'm exhausted of this.

AGAIN, saying he has been poor is one thing, expunging pure shit about him not being able to "pass, run, trap a ball, score etc", especially when he has already DONE those things with us, as again, pure tripe. I'm done.

Is there anyone there who can make GIFS or a video clip of his cross field passes, forward passes, holding off players and scoring goals? Or were these things a figment of imagination? Ironically his good performances coincided with good team performances *Mind Blown*.

Truth is, none of us know for certain whether he will come good, or turn out to be a total flop in the long term, as he has only played 16 PREMIER LEAGUE GAMES in a team with sporadic performances and POOR DISPLAYS ALL OVER THE PITCH! ALL THE PLAYERS POOR PERFORMANCES AFFECT OTHER PLAYERS PERFORMANCES!

Not to mention all the other circumstances which have been mentioned 1000 times.

I'm done ffs.