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Tomaszk

Wesley Moraes

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39 minutes ago, TRO said:

Vardy plays a lone role in a 4-1-4-1.....and is half his size.

His first touch lands him in trouble,so the passes cease......just an observation, not a claim.

I don't think posters are writing him off......just saying what they see.....what he does in the future is to be commented on then.

I thought last night was one of his worst.....I think, he offered very little, despite all the mitigating arguments.....I think he is starting to cause the team problems in his lack of support....He maybe is harshly treated by Refs on occasions, but some of the stuff he goes down with is powder puff.....He clearly doesn't like or accept this level of physicality imposed on him.

Its interesting how quick Klopp came to a conclusion on Benteke...just saying.

Yeah, I find that aspect of Wes' game very concerning.

He's well built yet he goes to ground looking for soft fouls that aren't there. Shows that he doesn't back himself to win the contest yet at this level with play that outdoes his opponent.

What's your point regarding Klopp and Benteke? Benteke was one of the best strikers in the game for a time.

Just because a quality manager doesn't want to work with a player doesn't necessarily make it an indictment on the player.

I haven't followed Benteke closely enough since he left to discuss what has happened for him, but Liverpool fans I have touched base with said he was never a poor player.

But I digress, and I'm not entirely sure as to why Benteke came up.

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1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

It's not really surprising that his pass and pass success rate statistics are low, is it? Or that he is worst off at keeping the ball.

He plays as a lone striker, up against two lines of defense and potentially a half dozen men closing his options most of the time.

He is getting praise from me for keeping things simple, because he does not try and force plays that aren't going to transpire.

He does seem to know when the ball is one that he should be attempting to finish, and when he is in a situation where he doesn't have to be the final product.

I'll give him that. If not much else. His conversion rates on goal last week where the same as Tammy Abraham, only Chelsea had created three times more for him.

When my post considers the quality of service and delivery he gets as well, I only want to question what others are expecting from him?

I'm honestly not calling Wes a good player just yet, or saying I think he will be, it just baffles me how quick some posters are to write off a player as poor.

He might well be, but first I'd like to consider what are the factors that make him that way, and if there is room for development and scope to mitigate liabilities.

I ran out of likes, so here's a thumb: 👍

I guess we're not the only fans that in a newly promoted team who's scored 22 goals and conceded 24 are most of all concerned with our striker, who has scored a decentish amount of goals, rather than being concerned with our defence who while not bad concedes too many easy goals. It's so strange.

About yesterday's game I can't say he was great, only Heaton was IMO, but he wasn't as bad either. Too many seems to neglect that he was on his own up against a very good defence. The whole team was up against one of the best teams in the league at their ground. It would always be a tough game. Especially as they'd lost two in a row and really had something to prove.

And about that goal we got. It probably wouldn't have come without him doing his job. And certainly not if we'd had Kodija on instead of him. It's not that he did something fantastic that no other striker would've done, but probably not Kodija. But he did it. Which you could never believe reading this thread. He took his run to the near post, pulling a defender with him and made it hard for him, creating space behind him for Trez to come in to and score. If to believe many on here he never takes run into the area or does anything else that is good. No, that run wasn't amazing, it's something to be expected. But he did it anyway, and he did it well.

He still has a lot to learn, absolutely, and for some strange reason he's better at hitting a apss on one touch than he is to control the ball, but those passes he hits pretty well. I think it was Hourihane he put through in the early minutes of the game with a one touch but he wasn't awake or offside. Can't remember.

I'm a little concerned about him working a bit too hard sometimes. There are a few times when he's been chasing the opponents far down on our own half, almost ending up in the pen area. As good it is sometimes it will most of all make him tired and there's always a risk that there's no one up front when we get the ball.

He's rather slow on the first 3-5 yards, but on longer runs he's not that slow. Problem is that most runs from a forward are just a few yards or at least those first are crucial to get to the ball first.

And yes, he needs to be more hungry and get into scoring positions more often, IMO. It's not that he's not doing a job along the line of the pen area, but we don't have enough midfielders who comes in behind him when he's bullying the defenders. And far too often he's out by the sideline and don't get back in the area quick enough. But that's something that can be taught. If Smith wants it. I don't know what he's telling Wes to do.

For me, for being a lone striker, he's too much involved in the play around the box instead of inside of it. So far he's been the serving striker no 2 in a 2 man attacking line more than the goal scoring lone striker. And that's not his fault. It doesn't make him a bad player. And to say that he's the worst striker we've ever had, which I've read several times, is just daft. Or coming from someone who's only been a fan for the last few months.

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I've read a few times that the focus should be blaming the defence. And yes they have issues but it doesn't help when our most forward focal point can't get in the game and be threatening  

Of course that's going to put pressure on the defence and allow us to be countered when moves break down

I'm not writing him off but he is really struggling and has put in some abysmal performances. 

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19 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I've read a few times that the focus should be blaming the defence. And yes they have issues but it doesn't help when our most forward focal point can't get in the game and be threatening  

Of course that's going to put pressure on the defence and allow us to be countered when moves break down

I'm not writing him off but he is really struggling and has put in some abysmal performances. 

When we score as many goals as we've done so far that shouldn't be an issue for them. And we're having loads of possession in most of the games. The problem for the defence is that they too often seem to not being playing on the same wavelength. Which isn't that strange as it's a rather new lineup. They're still learning to know each other, and so on. And Mings has done a few errors. I won't say that our defence is shockingly bad, but it's more of a concern to me than our striking force. We've lost 8 games and won 4 of 15 and still only has -2 in GD thanks to scoring quite a lot.

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31 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

Yeah, I find that aspect of Wes' game very concerning.

He's well built yet he goes to ground looking for soft fouls that aren't there. Shows that he doesn't back himself to win the contest yet at this level with play that outdoes his opponent.

What's your point regarding Klopp and Benteke? Benteke was one of the best strikers in the game for a time.

Just because a quality manager doesn't want to work with a player doesn't necessarily make it an indictment on the player.

I haven't followed Benteke closely enough since he left to discuss what has happened for him, but Liverpool fans I have touched base with said he was never a poor player.

But I digress, and I'm not entirely sure as to why Benteke came up.

I was just commenting/ giving an example on how quick a manager can conclude his opinion.

I think all managers want to work with top players, Klopp obviously thought he was not what he wanted and has gone on to be proved right based on his exploits at Crystal Palace.

He had a good time with us, never to be repeated.

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3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I was just commenting/ giving an example on how quick a manager can conclude his opinion.

I think all managers want to work with top players, Klopp obviously thought he was not what he wanted and has gone on to be proved right based on his exploits at Crystal Palace.

He had a good time with us, never to be repeated.

Tbf, he did have a season at Palace where he scored loads of goals and was great for them, similar when he did for us. I've read a Palace fan describing it as his goals single-handedly keeping them up that season. He went to shit after his first season at Palace but there was a time he definitely was good even after Klopp binned him.

Edited by Laughable Chimp

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17 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Tbf, he did have a season at Palace where he scored loads of goals and was great for them, similar when he did for us. I've read a Palace fan describing it as his goals single-handedly keeping them up that season. He went to shit after his first season at Palace but there was a time he definitely was good even after Klopp binned him.

yeah, you're right.

21 goals in 102 games for Crystal Palace.

first season ....40 - ( 17)

second............30 - (3)

third................19-(1)

fourth..............13-(0)

some Centre backs score more than that......I think Klopp was right too.

Edited by TRO

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Firminho  is 10 times the player Benteke is . 

We are going to have to splash the cash In January on another centre forward if we are to stay up. 

Edited by PaulC

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2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I was just commenting/ giving an example on how quick a manager can conclude his opinion.

I think all managers want to work with top players, Klopp obviously thought he was not what he wanted and has gone on to be proved right based on his exploits at Crystal Palace.

He had a good time with us, never to be repeated.

For sure, on all counts. Managers are human. We all make snap judgements at times and some of us can even be reluctant to detach from them.

If you look at Klopp's Dortmund and Liverpool sides (I've not ever followed his work at Mainz) then his forwards all have a high energy work rate and are agile.

As well as technical and tactical proficiency, they really are motivated to find their best football and give their all to make the system work and establish their place within it.

Emotions are a huge part of Klopp's ethos and philosophy, you can be tactically aware, but if you're not emotionally involved and motivated, those tactics can fall by the wayside.

If accounts of Benteke having attitude issues is true on any level then I can understand why he didn't evolve into an all-rounded striker like Lewandsovski did.

Some of the greats of this generation of footballers have become that way under the guidance of Klopp.

But I can probably expect some more warning points for off-topic tangents now.

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It could be he's a flat track bully. I was always accusing Lukaku of that. 

Are people not taking into account the ridiculous fixtures we've had, probably tougher than anyone.  Away games against Spurs Arsenal Man City Wolves Man U Chelsea. That's 6 of last season's top 7!!!

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5 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

For sure, on all counts. Managers are human. We all make snap judgements at times and some of us can even be reluctant to detach from them.

If you look at Klopp's Dortmund and Liverpool sides (I've not ever followed his work at Mainz) then his forwards all have a high energy work rate and are agile.

As well as technical and tactical proficiency, they really are motivated to find their best football and give their all to make the system work and establish their place within it.

Emotions are a huge part of Klopp's ethos and philosophy, you can be tactically aware, but if you're not emotionally involved and motivated, those tactics can fall by the wayside.

If accounts of Benteke having attitude issues is true on any level then I can understand why he didn't evolve into an all-rounded striker like Lewandsovski did.

Some of the greats of this generation of footballers have become that way under the guidance of Klopp.

But I can probably expect some more warning points for off-topic tangents now.

Getting back to Wesley.....The big thing with forwards is movement, that is what disrupts defenders.

Klopp said " Benteke lack movement, his opinion, not necessarily mine"

Last Night Wes was poor in many aspects of play you expect a front man to have......I am not sure what the answer is, but he is a burden right now, playing like that.

I have always had the opinion players have to fight for the shirt and be better than the man who has it, to get it.

Dean simply has no one else.......we have to fix this.

 

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10 minutes ago, PaulC said:

We are going to have to splash the cash In January on another centre forward if we are to stay up.

This is where i'm at too.

We are literally playing with 10 men every week.

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7 hours ago, NurembergVillan said:

We also need to remember that £22m is bugger all for a striker these days.  At has been for a number of years.

Has he been worth £22m so far?  Not for me.

But we need a striker who is worth more than £22m.  Kelechi Iheanacho and Moise Kean cost £25m each and you'd be hard pressed to say either of them have been better than Wesley this season.

Iheanacho and Kean are miles and miles better than him though.

They've hardly had any minutes, and when they have, even when not playing well, you can see they can control and kick the ball 90% of the time. Wes needs 4 passes into him to trap it once.

The market is silly at the moment yes I agree. It's certainly not his fault he cost £22m. If he was £2m, maybe there would be less frustration?

I will say though I genuinely can't believe how bad he is. If he was a punt from league 2 for £500k I'd be disappointed because he looks like he can't play football.

How on earth has £22m been agreed? Has he gone off a cliff during the summer? Maybe he's the sole player at Villa who has managed to go backwards under Smith.

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3 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

How on earth has £22m been agreed? Has he gone off a cliff during the summer? Maybe he's the sole player at Villa who has managed to go backwards under Smith.

But hey. He occupies defenders right? We'll be fine!

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5 hours ago, Zatman said:

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This really is top notch.

Hope we have to same huge upswing in performance when Wesley is replaced like Taylor was.

It was like we'd had a weight lifted off our backs and could breathe. I reckon it'll be even more noticeable with a striker as well.

Purslow really has to work some magic to get some funds released for a striker. We're almost all there. We're looking good in almost every game as a whole team and we've got a central striker giving us nothing. If anything, actively breaking down most plays when he's involved.

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13 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

 

Iheanacho and Kean are miles and miles better than him though.

They've hardly had any minutes, and when they have, even when not playing well, you can see they can control and kick the ball 90% of the time. Wes needs 4 passes into him to trap it once.

The market is silly at the moment yes I agree. It's certainly not his fault he cost £22m. If he was £2m, maybe there would be less frustration?

I will say though I genuinely can't believe how bad he is. If he was a punt from league 2 for £500k I'd be disappointed because he looks like he can't play football.

How on earth has £22m been agreed? Has he gone off a cliff during the summer? Maybe he's the sole player at Villa who has managed to go backwards under Smith.

Again, went and checked the numbers just to confirm. Ihenacho has a 1 goal every 270 minutes over Wes's 1 goal every 326 minutes. A bit of a difference although not that substantial. But then Ihenacho also has 2 more assists than Wesley and if you include that its 1 goal or assist every 135 minutes over Wesley's 1 goal or assist every 260 minutes. So yeah, Ihenacho numbers wise are significantly better than Wesley's.

Moise Kean only has one assist but again, he doesn't really have that many minutes to fairly judge. Only 307 minutes of action leading to 1 goal or assist every 307 minutes.

The thing with Wesley that makes his stats look worse when you look at them by how many minutes he's played is that he's actually played a lot of minutes for us, playing most of if not all the minutes of every game he's started, and he's started every game for us in the PL.. I mentioned earlier that he's only a few hundred minutes behind equalling Gestede's total playing time for us in the PL and he's on course to equalling Gestede's goal or assist rate by minute at the rate he's going.

 

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Regardless of what we think about Wes, I'm not sure where Iheanacho being quality has come from.  Surely he is an example of how difficult it is to sign a striker these days.  As are Joelinton and Haller.

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Just now, sharkyvilla said:

As are Joelinton and Haller.

I'm so done with these types of strikers. Just big and strong lamp posts that doesn't offer anything.

What we need is someone like Maupay. A mobile striker that will run the channels and make intelligent runs in the box.

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