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Wesley Moraes

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15 minutes ago, carewjust4u said:

Is that the PL average for strikers, or for all players? Worth noting that Maupay & Vardy has an average of 0.6. Strikers by majority do not contribute key passes due to their location and involvement in later phases of play. (Source: WhoScored)

The PL average for all Forwards I believe. 

Edit: No wait, it just says PL average. I think its just for all players. 

But I don't think its relevant considering we're talking about how much Wesley is supposed to be contributing outside of his goal scoring. If he's not supposed to be mainly relied on as a goal scorer, I expect him to do much better in these other stats. 

And if its for all players, I think that looks even worse for Wesley since surely these averages will be dragged down by defenders, goalkeepers and defensively minded players.

Edit2: I checked the PL averages for Guilbert and its changed. Yep, pretty sure this is actually the PL average for each position.

Edited by Laughable Chimp

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3 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Eh, sometimes that should be an option. Having a striker shoot from outside the box once in a while isn't that bad lol, I mean Wesley has had 2 shots outside the box which is more than he usually doesin the last couple of matches and I wouldn't say that's a "complete breakdown of Smith's system". If he's a false 9 as some people here say he is, he should probably have a few more shots from outside the box than other strikers.

But the bigger problem which I mentioned below is that he seems to not really shoot the ball unless he's really close to the goal which leads to a higher shots on target ratio. Look at all his goals, they're tap ins or very close to being tap ins. That's not really a problem in of itself, but if you're trying to argue he's a good striker because he has a higher shot on target ratio because of it than yeah, it becomes one. If you're not gonna release a shot unless you pretty much know you're going to hit it on target, you're gonna have a lower shots per game ratio which we know is one of Wesley's problems. And if you have lower shots per game, you might not score as many goals in spite of the fact that you shoot more of what shots you do have on target. So that statistic can become meaningless.

 

Sorry mate you've missed my point slightly, i'm saying that Smith's system is designed to avoid shooting outside the box, Instead it focuses on the overlapping of the full-backs with deliveries across the box. Of which, the striker makes a attacking movement into the front post, with the midfielders/wingers arriving slightly later into the space the striker has just created. This is an attacking pattern you can see over and over again during our games. So what i'm saying is that Wesley will be being drilled to play this way, and facilitate getting the ball quickly into these wide areas high up the pitch. As such, you won't see him wasting chances by shooting outside the box, the tactics simply don't work like that. 

With your second point i'm not arguing he's a "good striker" based on this particular stat taken out of context. In fact, i believe he has shown he has all the attributes to suit this particular system, and the potential to go on and be very successful for us. Only a matter of time before they start beating the keeper. (I remember a season where Suarez kept hitting the post and narrowly missing, and then the next season scored 32ish goals).

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting Wesley is going to turn into prime-suarez, although, that would be pretty sweet.

Edited by carewjust4u
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9 minutes ago, carewjust4u said:

Sorry mate you've missed my point slightly, i'm saying that Smith's system is designed to avoid shooting outside the box, Instead it focuses on the overlapping of the full-backs with deliveries across the box. Of which, the striker makes a attacking movement into the front post, with the midfielders/wingers arriving slightly later into the space the striker has just created. This is an attacking pattern you can see over and over again during our games. So what i'm saying is that Wesley will be being drilled to play this way, and facilitate getting the ball quickly into these wide areas high up the pitch. As such, you won't see him wasting chances by shooting outside the box, the tactics simply don't work like that. 

With your second point i'm not arguing he's a "good striker" based on this particular stat taken out of context. In fact, i believe he has shown he has all the attributes to suit this particular system, and the potential to go on and be very successful for us. Only a matter of time before they start beating the keeper. (I remember a season where Suarez kept hitting the post and narrowly missing, and then the next season scored 32ish goals).

 

You nailed it man. If you think about it, that's literally how most of our goals from open play have been scored this season. Either Wesley himself scores from the near-post run, or someone behind him is found instead.

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4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Things I like about him: He's big and strong, when he gets hold of the ball he has good balance and poise. He can pick a pass and he can make a run. He really battles his centre half too, keeps them busy. Great engine.

Things I don't like about him: Tactically he is often playing his own game. Finishing from range is non existent. Aerially he is suspect for a big man.

Things I hate about really dislike about him : Stop falling over, they'll fear you even more if you hold your ground. And for **** sake sort that first touch out lad!

This is where I stand too. There's something there to work with ultimately so I'll have time for him.

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I think Wesley has really worked on his strength and physique since he’s been here. He was never fat, but looks more muscular now. Thats helping him hold off defenders which has improved his performances recently.

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some of the comments slightly remind me of comments about Grealish a few seasons back, where he didn't score goals, rarely got assists and people where like 'what is the point in Jack'.
 

Obviously I am not suggesting the two are the same, or that Wes can or will be anywhere near the talent Jack now has and shows, just that he does do more than some give him credit for. I think he will get better with time and also that he shouldn't be the only striker we rely on every single game, I think we need to be able to change systems occasionally, appreciate that is down to the squad more than it is Dean.

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10 hours ago, MotoMkali said:

You don't have to be good at beating men to be a good player. I think he beat a man at Newcastle but that isn't his game. He is supposed to receive the ball to feet and pick a man out with a good pass. He has been doing that and if we nearly had a couple of goals from these passes in the past few games so he is doing something right.

As I have said he does need to improve but scapegoating a player is ridiculous. He clearly wasn't intended to be the only striker we signed or had but unlucky injuries and an inability to get a player over the line has left us with him. Complaining about him isn't helping especially when half the complaints are we are only playing with 10 men and he drops to deep links up play but doesn't get in the box. These are contradictory statements. Yes he needs better off the ball movement but so does our entire team. He hasn't had a huge number of shots lately and he and the team need to find him in dangerous positions. 

He has one assist so how has he been doing that?

Edited by zab6359
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6 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Things I like about him: He's big and strong, when he gets hold of the ball he has good balance and poise. He can pick a pass and he can make a run. He really battles his centre half too, keeps them busy. Great engine.

Things I don't like about him: Tactically he is often playing his own game. Finishing from range is non existent. Aerially he is suspect for a big man.

Things I really dislike about him : Stop falling over, they'll fear you even more if you hold your ground. And for **** sake sort that first touch out lad!

Pretty much as I see it, he needs developing and I have faith he's at the right place to do it.

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7 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Things I like about him: He's big and strong, when he gets hold of the ball he has good balance and poise. He can pick a pass and he can make a run. He really battles his centre half too, keeps them busy. Great engine.

Things I don't like about him: Tactically he is often playing his own game. Finishing from range is non existent. Aerially he is suspect for a big man.

Things I really dislike about him : Stop falling over, they'll fear you even more if you hold your ground. And for **** sake sort that first touch out lad!

Perfect summary. 
 

Id also add his movement in the box Is poor.  Too many crosses never get to him because he is to static. Needs to be busting a gut to get on to balls in to the box.

Edited by Vive_La_Villa
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5 hours ago, zab6359 said:

He has one assist so how has he been doing that?

It could be argued that it’s not just assists though, it’s the ball prior to assists. Grealish goal against Brighton for example. Ball played into Wes who takes the cbs out the game, he holds them off feeds the ball wide to Guilbert who crosses for an unmarked Jack to score 

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This argument reminds me of the discussion about Chad Bradford of Oakland A’s fame and other baseball players in Moneyball. 
 

Is there something we’re missing with Wes that is in the stats? Is our (I include myself in this) criticism of him a result of us looking for those old-school football characteristics: ‘he’s a big lad‘ so he needs to be this, that and the other’? One of those stats might be on the expectation that strikers score goals, rather than create space? 

 

I wonder if clubs have different sets of stats now that reflect, for example, how many times a striker takes CBs out the game? How many times a ball ends up in a goal scoring position when this player is on the pitch? Can any of our members who are scouts give us an insight into the modern statistical side of the game that we might miss by watching SkySports’ usual emphasis on shots and possession?

 

In short, how much of Wes’s place in the team is dictated by values/stats that other teams (and fans) don’t value? This was certainly the transfer policy at Brentford and I just wonder if Dean has had to resort to it here in order to create a version of Abraham in the aggregate?

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I tend to agree that one of Wesley's biggest problems is he doesn't "look" right when he plays. There's not much elegance about his play. His body moves like he's a pantomime horse being played by 2 or 3 people.

That would make him a classic fit for a moneyball signing. The issue is we've spent £22m on him, which isn't very moneyball.

I personally think if we'd signed Wesley for about £15m and signed another decent striker at the same time, the narrative around him would be very different. We'd all be giving him time to adapt, and seeing him as a strong prospect. He's been thrown in at the deep end, and we can be a pretty unforgiving crowd.

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10 minutes ago, KevinRichardsonsMoustache said:

Is there something we’re missing with Wes that is in the stats? Is our (I include myself in this) criticism of him a result of us looking for those old-school football characteristics: ‘he’s a big lad‘ so he needs to be this, that and the other’? One of those stats might be on the expectation that strikers score goals, rather than create space?

I wonder if clubs have different sets of stats now that reflect, for example, how many times a striker takes CBs out the game? How many times a ball ends up in a goal scoring position when this player is on the pitch? Can any of our members who are scouts give us an insight into the modern statistical side of the game that we might miss by watching SkySports’ usual emphasis on shots and possession?

In short, how much of Wes’s place in the team is dictated by values/stats that other teams (and fans) don’t value? This was certainly the transfer policy at Brentford and I just wonder if Dean has had to resort to it here in order to create a version of Abraham in the aggregate?

Very fair points. With him in the team, we are scoring plenty of goals.

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It's as if the level of physical contact he can expect is still taking him by surprised and the concept of playing to the whistle also appears to have passed him by. 

They should do that thing that they do in American football training where he has to run through a tunnel of his team mates battering him with training pads until he gets conditioned enough to stay on his feet

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8 minutes ago, TheMelvillan said:

It's as if the level of physical contact he can expect is still taking him by surprised and the concept of playing to the whistle also appears to have passed him by. 

They should do that thing that they do in American football training where he has to run through a tunnel of his team mates battering him with training pads until he gets conditioned enough to stay on his feet

Does tend to go down like he's been taken out by a sniper!....................Then the raising of the arms in protest whilst play carries on, bugs the shit out of me that part of his game.

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46 minutes ago, zab6359 said:

Does tend to go down like he's been taken out by a sniper!....................Then the raising of the arms in protest whilst play carries on, bugs the shit out of me that part of his game.

I think Smith has also hinted he is a bit vexed at this aspect of Wes’s game as well?

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38 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

I think Smith has also hinted he is a bit vexed at this aspect of Wes’s game as well?

He did earlier in the season, but I don't think Wesley has been doing this in the last couple of games.

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On 02/12/2019 at 10:23, birdman said:

He was causing Man U all sorts of problems yesterday and by doing so creating space and time for our midfield. Of course you want to see him score but that was a really good AND IMPROVED performace. Worked very hard and made a big contribution to the point earned.

Also cant remember which Man U player it was that bounced off Wes...very funny though lol

 

I can't remember either but it looked like he just slid down Wesley then bounced off, looked well and truly flattened. 

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