Jump to content

Wesley Moraes


Tomaszk

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, useless said:

I believe in a thing called 'the living language', the meaning of words change and evolve, like Frankenstein used to be the name of the 'monster's inventor, but it has since taken on a new meaning and is now the name of the monster, or at least in popular culture, if you're reading the original text then it keeps it's original meaning. And cool, hello cool dude. So 'false 9' might be a term that is now used to describe a withdrawn striker, but originally it was more of a term to describe the player who played the furthest forward in a system that didn't include any players who'd normally call themselves a 'centre-forward.

One day I'm convinced that the Wesley Moraes thread on VillaTalk will be a set text in GCSE English. We have covered the entirety of human existence on here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I'm not really worried about points, I'm just hoping to see this team develop into one that can progress beyond just staying in the league.

No?, I am bricking it.

I do too.

but its no good worrying about the 10th fence on a racecourse, when approaching the daunting 3rd.

We have to stay in this league and the prospects of going out are far reaching and would destroy all the hard work and feel good factor gaining promotion has brought.

Its no good looking at the fixture list either, its enough to make you throw the towel in.

We have got what we have got in terms of players......They have to go out and tell themselves, I am not coming off this park with less than 3 points.

Not just Jack, John or Mings.....all the others.

They have to make the opposition feel, they wished they hadn't come.

Edited by TRO
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not Wesley's fault we haven't got enough points, for all this talk of us needing another striker, which I agree with, outside of Tottenham and the top four no other club has scored more goals than us, as a team at the attacking end of the pitch we're doing a pretty good job. It's defensively where we're dropping points, only the bottom three have conceded more goals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, KentVillan said:
  • He doesn't occupy the exact same role as Tammy.
  • That's why nobody called Tammy a False 9.
  • It really isn't that simple.

He's joined us from Brugge who played 3-5-2. He wore the number 7 shirt, usually playing behind a smaller, quicker number 9 (initially Jelle Vossen who got injured, and then after that Siebe Schriyvers).

He was their third highest scorer last season, and he had almost as many assists as goals.

Every game I've seen him at Villa he has regularly dropped deeper than 2 or 3 of our attacking midfielders.

He is a completely different player from Tammy, not just ability-wise, but in terms of playing style.

I do agree with this bit, though. Wesley is completely the wrong physical profile to be playing as a False 9 in the Premier League. It suits a fast, technical, one-touch player like Firmino.

I suspect things will come good for him when he realises that some of the stuff he had the luxury of doing in the Belgian League just isn't possible here - especially in a 4-3-3 formation.

The False 9 role makes the most sense when you have very good goalscoring wingers, and you lack a bit of creativity in the hole. We're the complete opposite - our wingers are our weakest players, and we have loads of creativity behind the striker.

I'm not talking about how he should be deployed or what he was at Brugge. Only what he is at Villa. 

He, imo plays exactly the same position and role as Tammy did. The central figure up front in a 4-3-3. Now whether he plays the role differently or has different attributes has absolutely nothing to do with my point in principle. Whether there are slight adjustments to the way Smith and Co expect him to play that role I would believe are more down to his ability and not them replacing the system or pattern of play from last year. Smith has even said the players brought in will fit the system not the other way around. So on that basis his role is the same as it was last year with a different CF. IMO he doesn't drop deeper than Tammy did either, Tammy just made the ground up quicker when breaking because he is more pacier and more of a goal getter.

I cannot believe either that Smith would under any circumstances be expecting the wider players ie, Ghazi or Trez for example to be hitting double figures this season relieving Wes of his duties in front of goal. We aren't Liverpool and cleary an indication of this was moving Grealish from a more central position to get him closer to Wes out wide where he has more influence in the final third linking with the CF(Wes) and creating opportunities for him and others. If you do play a false 9 then you need to serious goalscorers either side that can cut in at will and damage teams. I don't see Smith being naïve enough as to expect this from our current wide players tbh.

Plus as you even said if Wes is as some indicate a 'False 9' then Smith would've been looking at an El Ghazi/Firmino type player and not the physical stature of Wes anyway. Of course he has other duties in the role he plays than say traditional 'stay up top' CF. The point is he though he is deployed as a CF Just like Kane and Tammy and numerous other CF's. 

FWIW I'm not hating on him or slating him for the sake of whinging. The reality is he does need time and does possess the attributes of a player that could do very well in the PL if it clicks for him. My opinion of him though currently is that he is nowhere near that place and unless his workrate and desire to smash it pick up he'll struggle to get there anytime soon. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, useless said:

Wesley isn't a 'false 9' since strikers never play as false 9s if they did it would be a contradiction, it would be like playing Heaton in goal and calling him a false goalkeeper', teams operate with a false 9 system when they don't start with any centre-forwards, so if we for example played with a front three of El Ghazi, Trezeguet and Jota, then one of them would likely be playing as the 'false 9'. There's probably a more fancy term for it, but Wesley is more of a withdrawn striker, similar to how Firminho plays, or how someone like Teddy Sheringham' used to play as he got older.

Of course forwards play false9, they drop out of the forward line into midfield to offer support and create problems, Lionel Messi is your best example of a false9. Messi made that type of role his own and I doubt there's been anyone close to him in how he makes that position work which clearly states the amount of work needed to make playing false 9 successful.

I would say Wes tries to part play a F9 and there have been times he's dropped to the midfield line to offer that exact support. I have though said his physique is all wrong. If you were to play an F9 all game 2ith a build like Wes, seriously you are going to be gassed quickly.

People see Wes as being a problem, not only is it to soon to tell but we also have to look at other players and wonder why they are the problem when they can't pick Wesley out in a group of defenders, it's not all down to Wesley. Our wingers just cant seem to manage picking Wesley up, I've often said they hold onto the ball for way to long so that the opposition has had time to regroup defensively instead of letting that cross fly towards Wesley.

I've seen Ghaz I time and time again send crosses way over the box and it's gone to our other winger as if both our wingers were playing ping pong. Our wingers passing, crossing has been a shambles that it's no wonder Wesley isn't on the scoreboard more, if it's not timing it's accuracy or to much power. We've even seen on more of a few occasions where unless Wesley was Mr Fantastic and way over stretching to meet a header, there's no way he would reach that.

Many of us have said it before but until we start getting the correct support into the box then criticising Wesley is pointless. We need to learn how to deliver better and more precise, when Jack moved over he exactly showed how to get service to Wesley.

We're also all mostly saying crosses are a mystery at Villa at the moment, we keep sending them in, yet no one's scoring headers. All Wesley's goals have come from low crosses, so why on earth are we sending them high and not low to his feet makes no sense this aerial crossing as we're not a threat in this way in the slightest.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A striker who drops deep wasn't the original definition of a 'false 9', those kind of forwards have existed long before the idea of false 9 even existed, amongst them you could count Cantona, Bergkamp, Del Piero, Zola and countless others. As for Messi that example rather makes my point for me, as he's not a traditional centre forward and certainly wasn't in his early career. To be honest actual centre-forwards that play through the middle and drop deep in the way that Wesley does seem to be quite rare these days, off the top of my head Firmino is the only one I can think of in the Premier league that plays that way, usually these kind of strikers operate in a 4411 system or a variation of it, but most teams these days play a variation of 433 with one main striker and then either two wingers or wide forwards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

I'm not talking about how he should be deployed or what he was at Brugge. Only what he is at Villa. 

He, imo plays exactly the same position and role as Tammy did. The central figure up front in a 4-3-3. Now whether he plays the role differently or has different attributes has absolutely nothing to do with my point in principle. Whether there are slight adjustments to the way Smith and Co expect him to play that role I would believe are more down to his ability and not them replacing the system or pattern of play from last year. Smith has even said the players brought in will fit the system not the other way around. So on that basis his role is the same as it was last year with a different CF. IMO he doesn't drop deeper than Tammy did either, Tammy just made the ground up quicker when breaking because he is more pacier and more of a goal getter.

I cannot believe either that Smith would under any circumstances be expecting the wider players ie, Ghazi or Trez for example to be hitting double figures this season relieving Wes of his duties in front of goal. We aren't Liverpool and cleary an indication of this was moving Grealish from a more central position to get him closer to Wes out wide where he has more influence in the final third linking with the CF(Wes) and creating opportunities for him and others. If you do play a false 9 then you need to serious goalscorers either side that can cut in at will and damage teams. I don't see Smith being naïve enough as to expect this from our current wide players tbh.

Plus as you even said if Wes is as some indicate a 'False 9' then Smith would've been looking at an El Ghazi/Firmino type player and not the physical stature of Wes anyway. Of course he has other duties in the role he plays than say traditional 'stay up top' CF. The point is he though he is deployed as a CF Just like Kane and Tammy and numerous other CF's. 

FWIW I'm not hating on him or slating him for the sake of whinging. The reality is he does need time and does possess the attributes of a player that could do very well in the PL if it clicks for him. My opinion of him though currently is that he is nowhere near that place and unless his workrate and desire to smash it pick up he'll struggle to get there anytime soon. 

Just because we play someone in that role doesn't mean it is their natural position. That would be like saying Hutton is a left back. You can't complain about a player being crap and then say it is his fault for not being played in the same way he was at the club we signed him from.

Besides wesley has had significant contributions to 8 of our 15 goals from open play which is pretty good. I hope nobody was expecting him to be Benteke. I wish he was as good as Benteke was but when Benteke played for us he was one of the 5 best strikers in the league behind suarez and aguero and on par with vardy and Kane. You can't expect every player to be that good and at least wesley isn't Joe Linton. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, useless said:

A striker who drops deep wasn't the original definition of a 'false 9', those kind of forwards have existed long before the idea of false 9 even existed, amongst them you could count Cantona, Bergkamp, Del Piero, Zola and countless others. As for Messi that example rather makes my point for me, as he's not a traditional centre forward and certainly wasn't in his early career. To be honest actual centre-forwards that play through the middle and drop deep in the way that Wesley does seem to be quite rare these days, off the top of my head Firmino is the only one I can think of in the Premier league that plays that way, usually these kind of strikers operate in a 4411 system or a variation of it, but most teams these days play a variation of 433 with one main striker and then either two wingers or wide forwards.

What I would do for a budget Firmino!

I do think it's way too early to write Wes off and have seen enough to suggest he could improve a lot and come good. What I would really like to see is incremental improvements throughout the season. The frustrations for me are less to do with ability and more to do with how he reacts to situations when he is (often unerstandably) frustrated. I'd like to see him getting better at staying on his feet and keeping the ball as well as getting straight up when he goes down and we don't win a foul. I understand his frustrations, but there have been a few times he's gone down then we've won the ball back and been on the attack with our focal point completely out of the game...then when the ball goes out he immediately gets up. I remember one of these he was actually in their box!

He definitely has the desire to improve, so if we keep playing him and don't buy another striker all I can do is trust the coaching staff that they are seeing big improvements and it's just taking a little longer to make it onto the pitch.

I'd be much more chilled about all of this if we weren't newly promoted and hovering around the relegation zone.

Edited by Sam-AVFC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

What I would do for a budget Firmino!

I do think it's way too early to write Wes off and have seen enough to suggest he could improve a lot and come good. What I would really like to see is incremental improvements throughout the season. The frustrations for me are less to do with ability and more to do with how he reacts to situations when he is (often unerstandably) frustrated. I'd like to see him getting better at staying on his feet and keeping the ball as well as getting straight up when he goes down and we don't win a foul. I understand his frustrations, but there have been a few times he's gone down then we've won the ball back and been on the attack with our focal point completely out of the game...then when the ball goes out he immediately gets up. I remember one of these he was actually in their box!

He definitely has the desire to improve, so if we keep playing him and don't buy another striker all I can do is trust the coaching staff that they are seeing big improvements and it's just taking a little longer to make it onto the pitch.

I'd be much more chilled about all of this if we weren't newly promoted and hovering around the relegation zone.

pretty much my thoughts. i think his antics have influenced opinions...they certainly did mine. i believe the incident you're referring to was at the end of the west ham game...not exaggerating to say that i've never been so ashamed that a player is wearing a villa shirt after what he did. it was an utter disgrace.

Edited by tomav84
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, useless said:

It's not Wesley's fault we haven't got enough points, for all this talk of us needing another striker, which I agree with, outside of Tottenham and the top four no other club has scored more goals than us, as a team at the attacking end of the pitch we're doing a pretty good job. It's defensively where we're dropping points, only the bottom three have conceded more goals.

Its the point I have been trying to make.

We turn up to play football too soon in a game....now that may sound barmy, because we all like to see us in full flight, but there is a trade off for it and its killing us.........We should come out with the intention of battle first, football later.

as the famous saying goes " you have to win the right to play football"

We come out of the traps in a very encouraging fashion, but when the opposition take the sting out of us, we fall back in to a lower level of intensity and struggle to maintain momentum.

We are like a man that has gone hungry for a month and finds food and gorges himself.....our play is too desperate to score, like a squirrel collecting nuts for the winter..everything is a panic to get a sore on the board.

We have to learn to compose and control our game and strike, when the opposition realises they are in a game.....Our swashbuckling style is naive, you can get away with it in the championship to a degree, but not in this league, they are too hard nosed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets assume Wesley gets better. It's likely to occur. But either way for Wesley's sake, surely we should be signing another striker for competition. It must be a better life for him at this club knowing he isn't alone pushing the front line. I can't help but think whatever our thoughts are about Wes, our attacking play or tactics, we would benefit all over from adding a striker to the books. It's not a case of giving up on Wesley. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Lets assume Wesley gets better. It's likely to occur. But either way for Wesley's sake, surely we should be signing another striker for competition. It must be a better life for him at this club knowing he isn't alone pushing the front line. I can't help but think whatever our thoughts are about Wes, our attacking play or tactics, we would benefit all over from adding a striker to the books. It's not a case of giving up on Wesley. 

Whilst I agree it's not sensible to just give up on a player, I also like to think I'm a good judge (Tin hat on) of a player having seen them play 10-15 games. My worry with Wesley is he doesn't seem to have any attributes that I think a good striker should possess. He can't seem to shoot from range, he can't dribble, he can't head and he looks slow. I liken it to the Scott Hogan situation in some regard. A handful of people on here were defending him on the basis we 'weren't playing to his strengths', when the bloke couldn't control the football.

We all want our players to do well, especially when they've cost 22m, but I fear that even if Wesley improves on what he already has in his locker, is that a) going to be too late for AVFC (relegated), or b) is he even going to be good enough when he's improved. 

I'm just not a fan. January is huge. 

 

  • Like 2
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

He can't seem to shoot from range, he can't dribble, he can't head and he looks slow. I liken it to the Scott Hogan situation in some regard. A handful of people on here were defending him on the basis we 'weren't playing to his strengths', when the bloke couldn't control the football.

I only remember him trying a long range shot once and can't think of a single time he tried dribbling.

The heading is really disappointing and I was also expecting him to be a lot quicker. I've heard in various interviews (including by himself) that he's meant to be quick so hopefully it's just that he hasn't caught up to the speed of the game and isn't reacting quickly enough.

That GIF of him absolutely flying up the pitch from nowhere from when he was at Brugge made me expect him to be a lot more mobile than he has been so far.

Edited by Sam-AVFC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I only remember him trying a long range shot once and can't think of a single time he tried dribbling.

The heading is really disappointing and I was also expecting him to be a lot quicker. I've heard in various interviews (including by himself) that he's meant to be quick so hopefully it's just that he hasn't caught up to the speed of the game and isn't reacting quickly enough.

That GIF of him absolutely flying up the pitch from nowhere from when he was at Brugge made me expect him to be a lot more mobile than he has been so far.

He's not slow once he gets going.

But there's no initial zip. And he looks like he cant dribble. Or kick a ball properly. Or head.

Edited by Tomaszk
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, useless said:

It's not Wesley's fault we haven't got enough points, for all this talk of us needing another striker, which I agree with, outside of Tottenham and the top four no other club has scored more goals than us, as a team at the attacking end of the pitch we're doing a pretty good job. It's defensively where we're dropping points, only the bottom three have conceded more goals.

This needs saying a lot more times when people are banging on about our attack being toothless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I was also expecting him to be a lot quicker. I've heard in various interviews (including by himself) that he's meant to be quick so hopefully it's just that he hasn't caught up to the speed of the game and isn't reacting quickly enough.

That GIF of him absolutely flying up the pitch from nowhere from when he was at Brugge made me expect him to be a lot more mobile than he has been so far.

This is the actual thing that I think just needs more time. Players don’t always get up to the speed and physicality of the PL immediately even if they are fast, strong etc. Hopefully he does.

Also to add I like him but that doesn’t mean I don’t think we should have more than one option up top! Would love to see someone else in in Jan so that we can mix things up. Those positions aren’t mutually exclusive at all.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Lets assume Wesley gets better. It's likely to occur. But either way for Wesley's sake, surely we should be signing another striker for competition. It must be a better life for him at this club knowing he isn't alone pushing the front line. I can't help but think whatever our thoughts are about Wes, our attacking play or tactics, we would benefit all over from adding a striker to the books. It's not a case of giving up on Wesley. 

Its the clubs fault a senior striker wasnt brought in at the same time to take the load off him, not sure Kodjia fits that bill. Similar to United when Rashford was having a mare a few weeks back

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have I been massively impressed with him so far this season? - NO

Have I seen enough to convince me that he will succeed here? - NO

Is it way to early to be writing off a young kid that has come to new country, in a new team that has had a major facelift itself over the summer? -  Hell YES. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Zatman said:

Its the clubs fault a senior striker wasnt brought in at the same time to take the load off him, not sure Kodjia fits that bill. Similar to United when Rashford was having a mare a few weeks back

Main mistake of the summer transfer window really.

Different position but Leicester signed Souyncu for 20 odd million last summer. You can imagine if we did that everyone would be on here saying he had to start just like when we signed Wes. Apparently he struggled to settle and also adapt to the pace of the prem so Leicester mainly kept him on the bench and played Maguire, Evans and Wes Morgan ahead of him for most of last season.

This season he is ready and played pretty well so far so their patience has paid off.

I do fear by overplaying him and him struggling to get to grips with the higher level (let's be honest he hasn't contributed much in games he hasn't scored) is increasing the negativity around him from the fanbase. This wouldn't be happening if he was being eased into the English game coming off the bench and starting in the cup.

His style actually reminds me a bit of Kozak who was another awkward forward who didn't have much of an all round game but could poach a few goals. He was mainly back up to Benteke and started games when he was injured so that was more logical way of doing things.

I think deep down DS knows he should've pushed more for a striker on the last day particularly as Kodj and Davis have picked up more injuries this season. Neither of course proven at the top level either. We lack game turning options off the bench which again in the long term we're going to need if we want to be a force at this level again.

Edited by VillaChris
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...
Â