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Wesley Moraes


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6 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't know whether Dean has designed Wesley to play a false No 9 or not, what I do know is to play is successfully you have to be blessed with many attributes.....also this and many other so called things that enter the modern game as new have in fact been around for many years before.

Soccer football is a mature game and there are not many things that are new, most have been regurgitated by coaches who tap in to the skill base of their squad and attempt to get the best out of it.

see below a link to the explanations of a false 9 that may be helpful to some to understand it properly.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1802653-complete-guide-to-the-false-9-and-who-plays-it-best

 

If you are using this article as gospel then here's the deal. Wes is not a FALSE 9. He neither drops deep enough or stretches the play/defence, end of. 

All this nonsense about he's not a CF is just that. He occupies the exact same role as Tammy did last season and would anyone honestly say Tammy was a false 9? Thought not! No he was as Wes is, a 9 and CF, it really is that simple. The differences are he isn't as good currently and has different attributes. He isn't as mobile, robust or nearly competitive enough in making shit happen. Now hopefully he comes good over time as all would wish, however let's dispense with the bs excuses as to why he isn't consistent. It's got nothing to do with the formation and more about application.

You don't bring in a lad who is 6.3 or thereabouts to drop deep pull wide and not make a nuisance of himself to defences or CB's. The beginning of the season we could all see he wasn't supported hence even myself I couldn't criticise the lad. Players were too far off him etc. Now all that is happening the excuse that we didn't bring him in to just score goals has risen up. If that was the case then the management need executing. Losing Tammy and thinking, "We don't need a CF, we need a pretend one". Let's get real people! 

I want the kid to come good, we'd be stupid not to. More often than not though he's been piss poor and lucky enough that he's had the ball on a plate several times so that he doesn't look a complete waste of dough. And if he gets his shit together it will be because of him wanting it instead of expecting it.  Good players make things happen, bad players expect it.

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Remember when we had Benteke, when we were really struggling we would play direct football into his chest and ask him to hold it up. It wasn’t that effective. However when we got Grealish and Nzogbia up closer to him and played to feet,  he was more effective. I see similarities with Wes, he seems to want it to feet. Take Grealish’s goal at Brighton for example, Grealish drove forward played the ball into Wes’s feet who took two defenders out of the game, played a through ball to Guilbert who crossed for a tap in. 

Now I’m not making the “Hogan excuses” as obviously Wes needs to adapt and improve, but I think there is more to come from him if the players also adapted to him.

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37 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

If you are using this article as gospel then here's the deal. Wes is not a FALSE 9. He neither drops deep enough or stretches the play/defence, end of. 

All this nonsense about he's not a CF is just that. He occupies the exact same role as Tammy did last season and would anyone honestly say Tammy was a false 9? Thought not! No he was as Wes is, a 9 and CF, it really is that simple. The differences are he isn't as good currently and has different attributes. He isn't as mobile, robust or nearly competitive enough in making shit happen. Now hopefully he comes good over time as all would wish, however let's dispense with the bs excuses as to why he isn't consistent. It's got nothing to do with the formation and more about application.

You don't bring in a lad who is 6.3 or thereabouts to drop deep pull wide and not make a nuisance of himself to defences or CB's. The beginning of the season we could all see he wasn't supported hence even myself I couldn't criticise the lad. Players were too far off him etc. Now all that is happening the excuse that we didn't bring him in to just score goals has risen up. If that was the case then the management need executing. Losing Tammy and thinking, "We don't need a CF, we need a pretend one". Let's get real people! 

I want the kid to come good, we'd be stupid not to. More often than not though he's been piss poor and lucky enough that he's had the ball on a plate several times so that he doesn't look a complete waste of dough. And if he gets his shit together it will be because of him wanting it instead of expecting it.  Good players make things happen, bad players expect it.

That is 100% how I see it.

However, the link was produced to help folk, who are not quite sure what a False 9 Is or supposed to be.......albeit we have to remember all these things are open to individual interpretations.

We need a proven goalscorer, who can score goals in this league.....The future is a prudent consideration, but its the here and now, which is concerning us all.

Just another thought.....we are currently the 6th best scorers in the division, so maybe, just maybe, we are barking up the wrong tree.

I think the defensive side of our front 3 and our midfield, also deserves some thought.

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51 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

Remember when we had Benteke, when we were really struggling we would play direct football into his chest and ask him to hold it up. It wasn’t that effective. However when we got Grealish and Nzogbia up closer to him and played to feet,  he was more effective. I see similarities with Wes, he seems to want it to feet. Take Grealish’s goal at Brighton for example, Grealish drove forward played the ball into Wes’s feet who took two defenders out of the game, played a through ball to Guilbert who crossed for a tap in. 

Now I’m not making the “Hogan excuses” as obviously Wes needs to adapt and improve, but I think there is more to come from him if the players also adapted to him.

Yup, this is it. It in no way excuses his bad performances but it just highlights what his strengths are. He's our best striker with the ball at his feet since Benteke. Kodjia has the skill to take on defenders but he takes to long to see and make a pass. Wesley moves the ball quickly when he gets it and switches the play well. The catch here is that he has to receive it to feet because as we know he's currently struggling with anything higher than that.

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1 hour ago, avfc1982am said:

He occupies the exact same role as Tammy did last season and would anyone honestly say Tammy was a false 9? Thought not! No he was as Wes is, a 9 and CF, it really is that simple.

  • He doesn't occupy the exact same role as Tammy.
  • That's why nobody called Tammy a False 9.
  • It really isn't that simple.

He's joined us from Brugge who played 3-5-2. He wore the number 7 shirt, usually playing behind a smaller, quicker number 9 (initially Jelle Vossen who got injured, and then after that Siebe Schriyvers).

He was their third highest scorer last season, and he had almost as many assists as goals.

Every game I've seen him at Villa he has regularly dropped deeper than 2 or 3 of our attacking midfielders.

He is a completely different player from Tammy, not just ability-wise, but in terms of playing style.

1 hour ago, avfc1982am said:

You don't bring in a lad who is 6.3 or thereabouts to drop deep pull wide and not make a nuisance of himself to defences or CB's.

I do agree with this bit, though. Wesley is completely the wrong physical profile to be playing as a False 9 in the Premier League. It suits a fast, technical, one-touch player like Firmino.

I suspect things will come good for him when he realises that some of the stuff he had the luxury of doing in the Belgian League just isn't possible here - especially in a 4-3-3 formation.

The False 9 role makes the most sense when you have very good goalscoring wingers, and you lack a bit of creativity in the hole. We're the complete opposite - our wingers are our weakest players, and we have loads of creativity behind the striker.

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Wesley isn't a 'false 9' since strikers never play as false 9s if they did it would be a contradiction, it would be like playing Heaton in goal and calling him a false goalkeeper', teams operate with a false 9 system when they don't start with any centre-forwards, so if we for example played with a front three of El Ghazi, Trezeguet and Jota, then one of them would likely be playing as the 'false 9'. There's probably a more fancy term for it, but Wesley is more of a withdrawn striker, similar to how Firminho plays, or how someone like Teddy Sheringham' used to play as he got older.

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6 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Yup, this is it. It in no way excuses his bad performances but it just highlights what his strengths are. He's our best striker with the ball at his feet since Benteke. Kodjia has the skill to take on defenders but he takes to long to see and make a pass. Wesley moves the ball quickly when he gets it and switches the play well. The catch here is that he has to receive it to feet because as we know he's currently struggling with anything higher than that.

I don't think anyone thought he was the finished article, when we bought him.

Maybe where the confusion exists with us is, how many things he has to work on?.....maybe some of us thought he was more developed than he actually is?

I am a fan, not a coach.....I can only comment on what I see, not what needs doing. Dean Smith will know having seen him close up, what needs doing and what is already ok, I am not privvy to what portions of the cake represent "ok/complete" and what percentage represents "work needs doing"

I feel sure Dean will know what to do with him.

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2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't think anyone thought he was the finished article, when we bought him.

Maybe where the confusion exists with us is, how many things he has to work on?.....maybe some of us thought he was more developed than he actually is?

I am a fan, not a coach.....I can only comment on what I see, not what needs doing. Dean Smith will know having seen him close up, what needs doing and what is already ok, I am not privvy to what portions of the cake represent "ok/complete" and what percentage represents "work needs doing"

I feel sure Dean will know what to do with him.

I think it's a mixture of the fact that he's very raw in terms of development and the fact that he's come from the Belgian league. It might take more time than we're used and I imagine the coaching staff were aware of this. That said, he isn't doing too badly.

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15 minutes ago, KentVillan said:
  • He doesn't occupy the exact same role as Tammy.
  • That's why nobody called Tammy a False 9.
  • It really isn't that simple.

He's joined us from Brugge who played 3-5-2. He wore the number 7 shirt, usually playing behind a smaller, quicker number 9 (initially Jelle Vossen who got injured, and then after that Siebe Schriyvers).

He was their third highest scorer last season, and he had almost as many assists as goals.

Every game I've seen him at Villa he has regularly dropped deeper than 2 or 3 of our attacking midfielders.

He is a completely different player from Tammy, not just ability-wise, but in terms of playing style.

I do agree with this bit, though. Wesley is completely the wrong physical profile to be playing as a False 9 in the Premier League. It suits a fast, technical, one-touch player like Firmino.

I suspect things will come good for him when he realises that some of the stuff he had the luxury of doing in the Belgian League just isn't possible here - especially in a 4-3-3 formation.

The False 9 role makes the most sense when you have very good goalscoring wingers, and you lack a bit of creativity in the hole. We're the complete opposite - our wingers are our weakest players, and we have loads of creativity behind the striker.

However, we are assuming he was playing in the right role with Brugge.?

maybe he wasn't.?...That is for our manager to establish.

IMO all these formations are derived from the attributes of the players in the squad.....Its difficult to play a certain way, unless you have the players capable of playing it......That's why coming from where we have been ,a few windows maybe required to get the balance or diversity right.

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18 minutes ago, useless said:

Wesley isn't a 'false 9' since strikers never play as false 9s if they did it would be a contradiction, it would be like playing Heaton in goal and calling him a false goalkeeper', teams operate with a false 9 system when they don't start with any centre-forwards, so if we for example played with a front three of El Ghazi, Trezeguet and Jota, then one of them would likely be playing as the 'false 9'. There's probably a more fancy term for it, but Wesley is more of a withdrawn striker, similar to how Firminho plays, or how someone like Teddy Sheringham' used to play as he got older.

that's my understanding FWIW.....but false 9's still score goals coming from a much deeper position naturally....As false 9's are sometimes called deep lying centre forwards.

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28 minutes ago, useless said:

Wesley isn't a 'false 9' since strikers never play as false 9s if they did it would be a contradiction, it would be like playing Heaton in goal and calling him a false goalkeeper', teams operate with a false 9 system when they don't start with any centre-forwards, so if we for example played with a front three of El Ghazi, Trezeguet and Jota, then one of them would likely be playing as the 'false 9'. There's probably a more fancy term for it, but Wesley is more of a withdrawn striker, similar to how Firminho plays, or how someone like Teddy Sheringham' used to play as he got older.

You're being too literal. It's just a name that has emerged for a role that some players perform. It's a real position.

Call it a "withdrawn striker" if you want. It's the same thing.

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To be honest it's a tactic that's very rarely used, Roma were playing it at one point, and Spain have also played it, but other than that I don't think there are many other examples, you have to be an extremely good footballing team, one that can dominate possession and have the ability to almost pass the ball into the net to make it work. Playing with a striker that likes to drop deep is a completely different thing but I think.

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16 minutes ago, TRO said:

However, we are assuming he was playing in the right role with Brugge.?

maybe he wasn't.?...That is for our manager to establish.

IMO all these formations are derived from the attributes of the players in the squad.....Its difficult to play a certain way, unless you have the players capable of playing it......That's why coming from where we have been ,a few windows maybe required to get the balance or diversity right.

You're ignoring the bit in my post where I talked about what he's done at Villa this season in a 4-3-3. His natural tendency is clearly to drop deep and pull wide to link up the play. He started his career as an attacking midfielder. Why are people ignoring all this evidence that is staring them in the face?

I'm not making excuses for him, but he is not a traditional centre forward. You only have to watch about 30 mins of us playing to see that.

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19 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

You're ignoring the bit in my post where I talked about what he's done at Villa this season in a 4-3-3. His natural tendency is clearly to drop deep and pull wide to link up the play. He started his career as an attacking midfielder. Why are people ignoring all this evidence that is staring them in the face?

I'm not making excuses for him, but he is not a traditional centre forward. You only have to watch about 30 mins of us playing to see that.

Not purposely.

talking generally and not specifically......players do all sorts of things and go in to all sorts of places when they are losing the physical battle, its called survival

back to Wes......So.....why did we buy him, when he was to replace Tammy who we lost?.....and allegedly the manager watched on many occasions....don't get it.

I also refer to Alan Shearers comments many moons ago when he said (answering a similar discussion) players have to adapt to the circumstances, not the circumstance have to be right for the player.

He looks like a quinntessential  centre forward to me a perfectly built one.......If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are its a duck.

 

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1 minute ago, useless said:

To be honest it's a tactic that's very rarely used, Roma were playing it at one point, and Spain have also played it, but other than that I don't think there are many other examples, you have to be an extremely good footballing team, one that can dominate possession and have the ability to almost pass the ball into the net to make it work. Playing with a striker that likes to drop deep is a completely different thing but I think.

When people say "false 9" they mean a range of different withdrawn striker roles, not just the Fabregas Euro 2012 position.

All it really means is that the player furthest forward on the team sheet (almost always in a 4-3-3) is regularly dropping deeper than your wingers and attacking midfielders when you attack, rather than playing on the last man.

According to this article the concept has been around for 125 years, and Firmino is indeed one example of it: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/jan/24/false-nine-ancient-tactic-power-shock-football-tactics

Quote

There have been four notable examples of the false nine in the Premier League this season. Roberto Firmino has proved particularly adept in the role, dropping deep, creating space for the pace of Mohamed Salah and Sadio Mané. But even Liverpool, whose success in the latter part of last season was so predicated on their front three, have changed. Often this season Salah has played more centrally with Firmino dropping off into a more traditional number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1, something that gets an additional creative player on to the pitch and shifts Salah slightly nearer goal.

At Chelsea Eden Hazard has been a reluctant false nine. When used like that against Barcelona last season, it was a specific tactic designed to take advantage of Chelsea’s superior pace on the break. This season, though, it feels like a stopgap while Maurizio Sarri waits for the club to provide him with a central striker who does not rely on getting crosses into the box.

Like I said, not defending Wesley, but it's clear he would rather be more of a second striker / withdrawn striker / false 9 / whatever you want to call it. And this would work better if we played with a front 2 or if our wingers were more of a goal threat.

It does feel like the club have made a bit of a mistake not signing a quick goal poacher type in the summer. I think Wesley would be taking a lot less flak if he was just one of our striking options.

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45 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I think it's a mixture of the fact that he's very raw in terms of development and the fact that he's come from the Belgian league. It might take more time than we're used and I imagine the coaching staff were aware of this. That said, he isn't doing too badly.

strangely, I like him.....I am not having a go at him and I would not subscribe to selling him, but......

We need points.

and I think the discussion is centred around that.

We are just debating.....how we get more to stay up.

 

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1 minute ago, TRO said:

strangely, I like him.....I am not having a go at him and I would not subscribe to selling him, but......

We need points.

and I think the discussion is centred around that.

We are just debating.....how we get more to stay up.

 

I'm not really worried about points, I'm just hoping to see this team develop into one that can progress beyond just staying in the league.

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I believe in a thing called 'the living language', the meaning of words change and evolve, like Frankenstein used to be the name of the 'monster's inventor, but it has since taken on a new meaning and is now the name of the monster, or at least in popular culture, if you're reading the original text then it keeps it's original meaning. And cool, hello cool dude. So 'false 9' might be a term that is now used to describe a withdrawn striker, but originally it was more of a term to describe the player who played the furthest forward in a system that didn't include any players who'd normally call themselves a 'centre-forward.

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