Wesley Moraes

[Delphinho123]

2 hours ago, villalad21 said:

I understand this point but there are tall strikers that doesn't regard themselves as target men.

Lukaku is a good example. Lukaku is not good at hold up play. He is mainly a poacher, a fox in the box and Man Utd used him wrong.

I'd like to see Wesley playing behind an actual number 9. I think we would see a much better Wesley.

Behind a number 9!? You want the bloke who is yet to dribble round a player, create a shooting chance for himself or run with the ball to play as the creative link behind a striker? Give over.
All this false 9 chat is a defense mechanisim for people who refuse to accept he looks way out of his depth. A false 9 (sick of the phrase already) is when a team don't have a recognised striker available or choose not to play with a recognised striker for the greater good of the team. See Fabregas for Spain a while back.

This bloke isn't a false 9. He's just a really bad no.9. It isnt the end of the world, we'll sign someone else and we won't have to have these nonsensical arguments about his proper position and how we're not playing to his strengths. All will be forgotten in Jan (I hope). 

[Dave-R]

3 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Yeah that's why I added the point, most of our goals without him bypass him outright. Jack is actually involved a lot in starting our attacks, an assisster for the assisster if you will. Wesley isn't. 

The difference being that Jack picks the ball up from our defence or midfield because of how he floats around the field, Wesley is up front so he's never going to be comparable to Jack on stats unless he does really start playing false 9 style properly.

Think some are not even given Wes the time of day let alone a chance and have trashed him as quick as it takes to lace up a pair of boots. I know we have limited time before we could be in trouble in this league, real trouble but a few good signings could also see us right. Thing is if we do bring in the right signings for January, I'd still keep Wesley because he's young and he's worth exploring and developing. To say he's done what he's done so far in the top league in football says alot about him as a player and character. If Wes is showing progress and we learn to fully support him I do honestly think all his critics will eat there words and do hope he makes all of you eat them.

I'm not down with throwing a striker to the side after just twelve games, he would of had to of dug his own grave and Wes is far from that I feel. Its way to soon to say let's sell but agree with some that we do need another striker. It wouldn't hurt to mix it up and give both Wes and the new striker a half each, if the one hasn't played well by half time bring the other on.

One thing for certain is Wesley needs competition, he doesnt have that from our other strikers no where near, he has no one to look upto and say (this guy is better than me in this area) or (look how he's doing that) this is his game and I could add that to mine. Wes is the best we have and most likely will be for the forseeable future unless we bring a couple in January and one of them hits the ground running.

I full support the lad, untill I see a sign that he's no longer worth it for one reason or another but you can plain see that he's wanting to be better. I feel that if we'd of had him in the championship last season, that we would certainly be looking at Wesley in a complete different way. He may not of scored more than Tammy did in the champ but I think he'd of been in double figures and in this seasons prem at least have two to three more goals to his tally now and a couple more assists.

[Dave-R]

1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

Behind a number 9!? You want the bloke who is yet to dribble round a player, create a shooting chance for himself or run with the ball to play as the creative link behind a striker? Give over.
All this false 9 chat is a defense mechanisim for people who refuse to accept he looks way out of his depth. A false 9 (sick of the phrase already) is when a team don't have a recognised striker available or choose not to play with a recognised striker for the greater good of the team. See Fabregas for Spain a while back.

This bloke isn't a false 9. He's just a really bad no.9. It isnt the end of the world, we'll sign someone else and we won't have to have these nonsensical arguments about his proper position and how we're not playing to his strengths. All will be forgotten in Jan (I hope). 

Someone doesn't recognise the way of the False, joined the dark side this one has, no hope for this young padawon.

Teachings of the false, you shall not be taught, go now must you.

[avfc1982am]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

I think there is a tendency at times to over complicate things...inadvertently as it might appear.

The strikers that occupy the top of the leader boards are there for a reason....no matter what country it is or what year or what era.

They don't bitch about service or look for excuses.....They find a way of scoring, they eke out opportunities, they seize moments, they bully opponents in to mistakes, they anticipate moves, they read the game, they take chances, they chase lost causes to disrupt, they attack the spaces.

That's just some of what they do.

Hence why Tammy is having a great season.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

Hence why Tammy is having a great season.

correct.

and it doesn't matter what period you talk about.....that's what the good ones do.

[Keener window-cleaner]

18 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

The first 2 just tells us that he was great before. But insisting a player is great right now because of how he played previously in another league and not looking at how he is actually currently playing for us is silly. There have been many players who looked masterful at their old club but for one reason or another are unable to replicate anything of their old form at their new club.

Smith plays him every week because we don't have much option. 

Anyone legitimately thinking Wesley's form is great because he got a call up to the Brazil national team is insane. Its not hard to imagine that whilst thinking who to call up, they found this 20million plus pound striker who seems to be scoring some goals in the PL and thought maybe they should bring him on for a bit to see how good he is for them. Plus, I'm not that familiar with the Brazilian national team, but I don't think they have another striker with Wesley's size and they probably thought he'd be useful to play if they wanted to try the targetman route.(as to which they'll soon realize he is not great at that)

You replied to my post but add quite a lot of suggestions here that dont correspond to what I wrote. I was replying to the statement that he can't control or run with or head the ball. He clearly can, he wouldn't have been young player of the year or called up the Brazil squad for example if he couldn't. The post had nothing to do with his form. 

[Laughable Chimp]

7 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

You replied to my post but add quite a lot of suggestions here that dont correspond to what I wrote. I was replying to the statement that he can't control or run with or head the ball. He clearly can, he wouldn't have been young player of the year or called up the Brazil squad for example if he couldn't. The post had nothing to do with his form. 

Well, he can't for us. That's the point, I don't care if he could control or run or head the ball in some other league in the past. He's not doing it for us right now.

Please don't make me explain why the Brazilian squad argument thing doesn't necessarily mean he is actually playing any good, this is the 4th time in 2 days I would have to explain it in this thread. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Laughable Chimp

[MotoMkali]

5 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

He doesn't reall support the team all that much either though. He's had to date, one assist. Most of our goals without him scoring just bypass him. I don't see him bullying defenders or beinva. general headache to people in defence either.

He has contributed directly to 7+ of our 17 goals which is pretty good and considering 2 of them were from set pieces where could contribute he has contributed to 45% of our goals from open play

 

Edit 8 forgot about his holdup play for el ghazis goal against everton

Edited November 20, 2019 by MotoMkali

[Keener window-cleaner]

1 minute ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Well, he can't for us. That's the point, I don't care if he could control or run or head the ball in some other league in the past. He's not doing it for us right now.

Please don't make me explain why the Brazilian squad argument thing doesn't necessarily mean he is actually playing any good, this is the 4th time in 2 days I would have to explain it in this thread.

I'm with you so far as that he has been inconsistent and only showed flashes of real quality, and as I've said many times I'm still unconvinced by him. Time will tell if he will make it in the Premier League. What I'm insisting on replying to are posts with suggestions that he is shit, or that he can't control the ball or can't run with it etc. 

[MotoMkali]

2 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Behind a number 9!? You want the bloke who is yet to dribble round a player, create a shooting chance for himself or run with the ball to play as the creative link behind a striker? Give over.
All this false 9 chat is a defense mechanisim for people who refuse to accept he looks way out of his depth. A false 9 (sick of the phrase already) is when a team don't have a recognised striker available or choose not to play with a recognised striker for the greater good of the team. See Fabregas for Spain a while back.

This bloke isn't a false 9. He's just a really bad no.9. It isnt the end of the world, we'll sign someone else and we won't have to have these nonsensical arguments about his proper position and how we're not playing to his strengths. All will be forgotten in Jan (I hope). 

No that is completely wrong. A false 9 used to be that. That is not the case anymore. Messi was a striker he played as a false 9 for 5 years and probably had the best stretch of football ever. Firminho now is a striker but plays as a false 9. It is just a term for a striker who drops deeper and helps link up play. 

[Laughable Chimp]

10 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

He has contributed directly to 7+ of our 17 goals which is pretty good and considering 2 of them were from set pieces where could contribute he has contributed to 45% of our goals from open play

I'm not arguing he's not involved in our goals at all,. I'm arguing that if he was a false 9, he should be more involved in the rest of our goals where he didn't score. Being involved in 3 out of our remaining 14 goals isn't impressive for a guy that's supposedly more involved in supporting the midfield and attack than actually scoring goals for himself. 

Okay, I misunderstood your set piece point. Deleted it.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Laughable Chimp

[MotoMkali]

7 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I'm not arguing he's not involved in our goals at all,. I'm arguing that if he was a false 9, he should be more involved in the rest of our goals where he didn't score. Being involved in 3 out of our remaining 14 goals isn't impressive for a guy that's supposedly more involved in supporting the midfield and attack than actually scoring goals for himself. 

Okay, I misunderstood your set piece point. Deleted it.

He has contributed to 4 of 11 goals in which he hasn't scored or from open play. That is pretty good grealish probably has got maybe 7-8 of 13 which whilst better is not ridiculously better and shows wesley has contributed to a lot of our goals. 

[Tomaszk]

4 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

All this false 9 chat is a defense mechanisim for people who refuse to accept he looks way out of his depth.

I'm afraid this is where we are right now.

Probably some of the same who were claiming Neil Taylor was a "defensive full back" trying to find positives.

Excuses don't have to be invented all the time. You can just say he's been crap and you hope he gets better. I certainly do. We all should!

Desperate for him to put in a performance v Newcastle. It's going to be very hard to win matches with him playing as he has.

[KentVillan]

6 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Behind a number 9!? You want the bloke who is yet to dribble round a player, create a shooting chance for himself or run with the ball to play as the creative link behind a striker? Give over.
All this false 9 chat is a defense mechanisim for people who refuse to accept he looks way out of his depth. A false 9 (sick of the phrase already) is when a team don't have a recognised striker available or choose not to play with a recognised striker for the greater good of the team. See Fabregas for Spain a while back.

This bloke isn't a false 9. He's just a really bad no.9. It isnt the end of the world, we'll sign someone else and we won't have to have these nonsensical arguments about his proper position and how we're not playing to his strengths. All will be forgotten in Jan (I hope). 

There's two separate things here:

Is Wesley's natural position false 9 / support striker?

I would say almost certainly, yes - his goal / assist ratio in Belgium is typical of that kind of player. All of his positioning, movement and passing have been typical of that role. You talk about Fabregas, but that was 7 years ago and a lot has changed since. Nowadays, you have strikers like Firmino and Benzema who have made that False 9 role a proper specialism in a 4-3-3 type system.

Are some people using it as an excuse for him?

Probably, yes. There are certain things he's doing wrong that are irrelevant of position - e.g. his aerial prowess is poor for his size, and it's concerning when you have a player with that physique who doesn't dominate in the air. The problem is that a player with his build is naturally giving up acceleration, speed and stamina - so you really need something to compensate for that, and usually the compensation is that they win everything in the air (Benteke, Heskey, Carew, Harewood, Sutton, Dublin, Crouch, etc. etc.)

Also most of the best false 9s can also play as a conventional striker (or winger or attacking midfielder). It's rare for someone to purely specialise in that one role, and really it's not unreasonable for us to expect Wesley to be able to adapt from game to game.

Having said all of that, I still think people are jumping to conclusions too early. It's really not unusual for players to look absolute garbage when they first arrive in the PL, and then to dramatically improve as they settle. Especially young players coming from weaker leagues. I think he'll cause Newcastle problems.

Edited November 21, 2019 by KentVillan

[Dave-R]

12 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Well, he can't for us. That's the point, I don't care if he could control or run or head the ball in some other league in the past. He's not doing it for us right now.

Please don't make me explain why the Brazilian squad argument thing doesn't necessarily mean he is actually playing any good, this is the 4th time in 2 days I would have to explain it in this thread. 

Need explanation I missed it all 4 times.

[tomav84]

10 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

I'm afraid this is where we are right now.

Probably some of the same who were claiming Neil Taylor was a "defensive full back" trying to find positives.

Excuses don't have to be invented all the time. You can just say he's been crap and you hope he gets better. I certainly do. We all should!

Desperate for him to put in a performance v Newcastle. It's going to be very hard to win matches with him playing as he has.

love how you always find a way to get the conversation back to taylor!

but i do agree with your last 2 sentences. i saw improvement after burnley where he was clearly bollocked for his performance, but has done nowt since. i'm afraid 2 decent performances out of 12 from  your lone striker is not good enough.

i maintain he'll get better though. but this needs to happen soon!

[Keyblade]

6 hours ago, tomav84 said:

love how you always find a way to get the conversation back to taylor!

but i do agree with your last 2 sentences. i saw improvement after burnley where he was clearly bollocked for his performance, but has done nowt since. i'm afraid 2 decent performances out of 12 from  your lone striker is not good enough.

i maintain he'll get better though. but this needs to happen soon!

I count 4. Which still isn't good enough, but shows there's something there to work with and work on.

[TRO]

I don't know whether Dean has designed Wesley to play a false No 9 or not, what I do know is to play is successfully you have to be blessed with many attributes.....also this and many other so called things that enter the modern game as new have in fact been around for many years before.

Soccer football is a mature game and there are not many things that are new,appertaining to the play,most have been regurgitated by coaches who tap in to the skill base of their squad and attempt to get the best out of it.

see below a link to the explanations of a false 9 that may be helpful to some to understand it properly.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1802653-complete-guide-to-the-false-9-and-who-plays-it-best

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by TRO

[TRO]

23 hours ago, Dave-R said:

Someone doesn't recognise the way of the False, joined the dark side this one has, no hope for this young padawon.

Teachings of the false, you shall not be taught, go now must you.

Dave.....It might be worth seeing my recent post that explains it, above.

The danger is that any player, not necessarily Wes who picks up this False 9  tactic can use it as an opportunity to abscond from the responsibilities of a true forward.

I would say .....only a few of the best players around can play it with any effect......for the masses, its a no,no from me.

We are simply not good enough and too many basic things to fix without getting ahead of ourselves with false No 9's

I would Wager, players like Jamie Vardy or Alan Shearer would have loved to have been built, like our Wes.....He is a perfect specimen for the role he is in.

Edited November 21, 2019 by TRO

[TRO]

On 20/11/2019 at 17:26, Delphinho123 said:

Behind a number 9!? You want the bloke who is yet to dribble round a player, create a shooting chance for himself or run with the ball to play as the creative link behind a striker? Give over.
All this false 9 chat is a defense mechanisim for people who refuse to accept he looks way out of his depth. A false 9 (sick of the phrase already) is when a team don't have a recognised striker available or choose not to play with a recognised striker for the greater good of the team. See Fabregas for Spain a while back.

This bloke isn't a false 9. He's just a really bad no.9. It isnt the end of the world, we'll sign someone else and we won't have to have these nonsensical arguments about his proper position and how we're not playing to his strengths. All will be forgotten in Jan (I hope). 

That is the real danger.

I am not saying you are right....bit too early for me.....but its a concern.