Wesley Moraes

[wilko154]

Some huge exaggerations in this thread.

He's not terrible, he's not a flop and he's not abysmal.

We signed a striker to develop and improve. We knew all along that we weren't buying the finished product. Combine that with Wesley being a young Brazilian footballer adapting to the English game and you have a player who will take 6 months to a year to show his true talent.

It's not his fault we signed him, or for the money we signed him for. It's our fault that we didn't combine his signing with another striker to take the pressure off him when he isn't performing.

We are judging Wesley on 12 games. 4 of those game have been against Tottenham, Arsenal, Man City and Liverpool. The difference between these games compared to previous seasons with Tammy and Kodjia in the Championship are huge. 

Wesley will improve, he will start doing the things he's doing well more consistently and he will shake off the bad habits. We haven't bought him to hit the ground running and become a 20 goal a season striker immediately, as with most players in the squad we've bought him for the long term investment of making him a better striker to benefit the club going forward.

We need to get behind him and help drive him on to some good performances, to pick up some goals and build some momentum. I would hope in January we will recruit some reinforcements for him to take off the pressure, however until then he's the best we have and we need to support him as much as possible.

 

[Philosopher]

8 hours ago, KentVillan said:

We were still (according to fairly reliable sources) trying to sort an even more expensive signing at the final hour, so I doubt another £20m would have been a problem.

As other's have said, these sums aren't that big in the current transfer market and under our new ownership. But maybe it's only with hindsight that we've fully appreciated it.

Smith said himself that he didn't believe Maupay was worth it. This to me means he (like I do myself) believes that Maupay has pretty much reached his potential.  So spending 20 million on a player that is probably an average striker at premier league level wasn't worth it.

I like Maupay, but for me he is limited. He isn't pacy, he isn't strong, he doesn't have outstanding skill, and he is not really clinical with his opportunities (Brentford create a lot of chances). He works hard, is fairly intelligent, has a bit of aggression, and is good a dropping off to link up with his midfield.  He is reliable. Has a good mentality.

I don't believe he is suited to being an Impact player, he certainly isn't one that can be used as a winger. So while he would offer something different, and would give 100 percent, he is not a player that would give us versatility or elevate us, which is what we should aim for with every signing, or at the the very least see the potential in a signing to do that in the future.

 

[birdman]

i actually think the Brazil call up will do him good and perhaps give a confidence boost - as long as he doesn't get injured of course because then we really are screwed!

[Tomaszk]

9 minutes ago, birdman said:

i actually think the Brazil call up will do him good and perhaps give a confidence boost - as long as he doesn't get injured of course because then we really are screwed!

Don't think we are at all right now.

We could have had Cameron Archer up front the last 4 games and I don't think he could have done any less than Wes.

[MotoMkali]

16 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Don't think we are at all right now.

We could have had Cameron Archer up front the last 4 games and I don't think he could have done any less than Wes.

Our last 4 games, Liverpool, City and Wolves. We would still have lost against Liverpool and City if aguero had decided he wanted a bit more of a challenge. As for wolves we were without grealish and the only player who created chances for others was el ghazi. Of course he struggled.

However against Brighton wesley got a pass to assist a bunch of good hold up play and chasing down. Wesley fairly challenged for a header which their keeper flapped at letting us score which was then wrongly denied. Wesley in other words has had a huge impact on those games. 

[birdman]

17 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Don't think we are at all right now.

We could have had Cameron Archer up front the last 4 games and I don't think he could have done any less than Wes.

We are poor in the final third, decision making, pass selection, crossing, shooting. Everyone has a part to play not all down to Wes. We start fixing this situation, Wes will score more. 

[birdman]

17 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Don't think we are at all right now.

We could have had Cameron Archer up front the last 4 games and I don't think he could have done any less than Wes.

We are poor in the final third, decision making, pass selection, crossing, shooting. Everyone has a part to play not all down to Wes. We start fixing this situation, Wes will score more. 

[birdman]

17 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Don't think we are at all right now.

We could have had Cameron Archer up front the last 4 games and I don't think he could have done any less than Wes.

We are poor in the final third, decision making, pass selection, crossing, shooting. Everyone has a part to play not all down to Wes. We start fixing this situation, Wes will score more. 

[useless]

Outside of the top four only Spurs have scored more goals than us~for all the talk of needing a new striker and a new winger which I hail and salute, it's in defence where we're dropping points, only the bottom three have conceded more goals, something needs fixing in that regard but what can it be.

Edited November 15, 2019 by useless

[KenjiOgiwara]

12 hours ago, wilko154 said:

Some huge exaggerations in this thread.

He's not terrible, he's not a flop and he's not abysmal.

We signed a striker to develop and improve. We knew all along that we weren't buying the finished product. Combine that with Wesley being a young Brazilian footballer adapting to the English game and you have a player who will take 6 months to a year to show his true talent.

It's not his fault we signed him, or for the money we signed him for. It's our fault that we didn't combine his signing with another striker to take the pressure off him when he isn't performing.

We are judging Wesley on 12 games. 4 of those game have been against Tottenham, Arsenal, Man City and Liverpool. The difference between these games compared to previous seasons with Tammy and Kodjia in the Championship are huge. 

Wesley will improve, he will start doing the things he's doing well more consistently and he will shake off the bad habits. We haven't bought him to hit the ground running and become a 20 goal a season striker immediately, as with most players in the squad we've bought him for the long term investment of making him a better striker to benefit the club going forward.

We need to get behind him and help drive him on to some good performances, to pick up some goals and build some momentum. I would hope in January we will recruit some reinforcements for him to take off the pressure, however until then he's the best we have and we need to support him as much as possible.

 

I love that you are saying people calling him poor are wrong, then proceed to make excuses for him and finish about talking potential. 

Fact is that he has been poor. Trying to create an alternative reality and defending him is just doing him a disservice. 

Ultimately he might find his feet, but we can't afford to wait for that. New striker in, Wesley on the bench. 

[TRO]

On 09/11/2019 at 21:07, Risso said:

I'm not sure I've seen much potential personally.  He seems to have a bit of physical presence, but that's about it.  No real pace, doesn't appear overly skilful, is woeful in the air, hasn't got a great shot on him.  Not been impressed so far, and it's hard to see what he's got in his locker that's going to ignite him into a decent premier League striker.

I think you point has validity.

However, I think he will come good.....The paradox is, I'm not sure we can afford the time to wait....We need a here and now striker.

I am all for signing young players, but they need time to develop and when they are from abroad, it can take longer as they have much more to learn, language,style, physicality, not to mention their own development.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I love that you are saying people calling him poor are wrong, then proceed to make excuses for him and finish about talking potential. 

Fact is that he has been poor. Trying to create an alternative reality and defending him is just doing him a disservice. 

Ultimately he might find his feet, but we can't afford to wait for that. New striker in, Wesley on the bench. 

I think that is a fair point.....what happens in the future as far as players developing is concerned, will not keep us in this league.

He might turn out to be a inspired signing, but it might be too late to keep us up.....We need goals now and we need to stop conceding, Now......we need points.

[wilko154]

31 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I love that you are saying people calling him poor are wrong, then proceed to make excuses for him and finish about talking potential. 

Fact is that he has been poor. Trying to create an alternative reality and defending him is just doing him a disservice. 

Ultimately he might find his feet, but we can't afford to wait for that. New striker in, Wesley on the bench. 

I'm not saying they are wrong, some of his performances have been poor but it had to be expected, very few young strikers coming into English football hit the ground running. The more he plays the quicker he learns and unlocks his potential. When he's been good he's been very good, the Everton and Norwich games were the standard we need to get him upto for every game. For me those two games in particular prove that there is a lot of talent in Wesley that both Aston Villa and Brazil have seen.

It's easy to say bench him and bring another striker in, but right now its November 15th. We have 10 games to go before we can sign a new striker. 

Are you suggesting we drop Wesley and play Kodjia going forward? 

I agree he needs reinforcements to help him come January, a striker with some pace and skill who can play on the shoulder of the defence gives us another dimension to our play and can either replace Wesley when he's out of form or play with him to get the best out of them both. Equally a player in his mould with some experience (Giroud for example) may also be beneficial to helping him learn and improve and take the pressure off for a year or two.

[tomav84]

i would absolutely give my right bollock to sign giroud. would be affordable too. but goes against the transfer policy within the club...so no chance it would happen

edit - he's only 33...thought he was even older...we'd get 2-3 seasons out of him

edit-edit - some big names linked to him...dortmund etc...never mind, was a nice thought while it lasted

Edited November 15, 2019 by tomav84

[Laughable Chimp]

22 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

I'm not saying they are wrong, some of his performances have been poor but it had to be expected, very few young strikers coming into English football hit the ground running. The more he plays the quicker he learns and unlocks his potential. When he's been good he's been very good, the Everton and Norwich games were the standard we need to get him upto for every game. For me those two games in particular prove that there is a lot of talent in Wesley that both Aston Villa and Brazil have seen.

It's easy to say bench him and bring another striker in, but right now its November 15th. We have 10 games to go before we can sign a new striker. 

Are you suggesting we drop Wesley and play Kodjia going forward? 

I agree he needs reinforcements to help him come January, a striker with some pace and skill who can play on the shoulder of the defence gives us another dimension to our play and can either replace Wesley when he's out of form or play with him to get the best out of them both. Equally a player in his mould with some experience (Giroud for example) may also be beneficial to helping him learn and improve and take the pressure off for a year or two.

Its not some of his performances have been poor, its most of his performances has been very poor. Like, he is completely and utterly useless in most of these games and I don't think that's so much an exaggeration. I'm not the person who came up with the "its like playing with 10 men" argument with him but I can certainly see it with him. As crap as our wingers have been at times I wouldn't label this at them. And for all this talk about his potential, its entirely possible he just never adapts for us and just remains crap the entire way at which point we'd probably be relegated if we didn't sign another striker.(or Smith does the smart thing and give Davis a chance).

**** Kodjia. #GiveDavisAChance.(when he returns from injury. Get well soon).

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Laughable Chimp

[wilko154]

5 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Its not some of his performances have been poor, its most of his performances has been very poor. Like, he is completely and utterly useless in most of these games and I don't think that's so much an exaggeration. I'm not the person who came up with the "its like playing with 10 men" argument with him but I can certainly see it with him. As crap as our wingers have been at times I wouldn't label this at them. And for all this talk about his potential, its entirely possible he just never adapts for us and just remains crap the entire way at which point we'd probably be relegated if we didn't sign another striker.(or Smith does the smart thing and give Davis a chance).

**** Kodjia. #GiveDavisAChance.(when he returns from injury. Get well soon).

 

Again it's all very well saying that but Davis most likely won't be back until January. So it's Kodjia or Wesley.

We've created this situation ourselves by not bringing in a second striker.

Writing Wesley off after four months is just plain daft.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, useless said:

Outside of the top four only Spurs have scored more goals than us~for all the talk of needing a new striker and a new winger which I hail and salute, it's in defence where we're dropping points, only the bottom three have conceded more goals, something needs fixing in that regard but what can it be.

Our wingers need to do more when we haven’t got the ball. Sick of seeing opposing fullbacks bomb it forward whilst Trez or El Ghazi just stand there and watch leaving our full backs isolated. Our chances conceded keep coming because of this.   
 

We have to be better and becoming a 4-5-1 formation when haven’t got the ball. Our midfield 3 can’t handle it.

[Laughable Chimp]

Just now, wilko154 said:

Again it's all very well saying that but Davis most likely won't be back until January. So it's Kodjia or Wesley.

We've created this situation ourselves by not bringing in a second striker.

Writing Wesley off after four months is just plain daft.

I've seen this twice now, that he won't be back with us for a while but I thought I remembered reading that he was expected to be out for a month after his injury. He should be close to a return by the time we play Newcastle by that forecast, so late November or early December.

 

[NIVillan]

Have to be a certain age to get the gist but:

The thing is we have bought a Paul Rideout , paid the current rate for a Paul Rideout but a lot of fans are expecting a Peter Withe straight away, 

[Philosopher]

13 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I've seen this twice now, that he won't be back with us for a while but I thought I remembered reading that he was expected to be out for a month after his injury. He should be close to a return by the time we play Newcastle by that forecast, so late November or early December.

 

It's was at least 6 weeks, or 6 to 8 weeks.