Wesley Moraes

[KenjiOgiwara]

4 hours ago, A'Villan said:

As long as Wes continues to deliver KD is going to be sitting on the pine for the most part. It's just the way it goes in sport.

And this is exactly the problem. Being poor in 8/10 matches isn't delivering. It's failing. 

His goals are decent with 4/10, but 2 of them was against a injury hampered Norwich side. It's just a bit fortunate for him that his goal ratio atm. saves him, cause his performances indicate he should be on the bench.

You don't have a squad in football just for injuries. They are there to rotate when performances drop. And Wes should be rotated out, there's no doubt about that. 

[A'Villan]

23 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

And this is exactly the problem. Being poor in 8/10 matches isn't delivering. It's failing. 

His goals are decent with 4/10, but 2 of them was against a injury hampered Norwich side. It's just a bit fortunate for him that his goal ratio atm. saves him, cause his performances indicate he should be on the bench.

You don't have a squad in football just for injuries. They are there to rotate when performances drop. And Wes should be rotated out, there's no doubt about that. 

On the former, as I said, you have your starters, your backup or bench and your reserves. This doesn't necessarily mean each are fixed each week.

On the latter, I don't know if I share your conviction and confidence on whether Wes should be rotated out.

He's doing a job, just as KD did when called upon under Bruce. He wasn't brilliant, but he contributed well enough.

[Philosopher]

18 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

On the former, as I said, you have your starters, your backup or bench and your reserves. This doesn't necessarily mean each are fixed each week.

On the latter, I don't know if I share your conviction and confidence on whether Wes should be rotated out.

He's doing a job, just as KD did when called upon under Bruce. He wasn't brilliant, but he contributed well enough.

Some players take a couple of seasons to adjust to a new brand of football. The fact Wesley as a player that is adjusting to a new brand of football, new team and teammates, new culture and new language and still has respectable figure is really quite impressive. Add to the fact Wesley is still developing it looks to me like we could have an unpolished Gem on our hands. Most of this Wesley is terrible stuff is just looking for a scapegoat. 

I remember Tammy having many poor games last season, even half the games he scored in he was poor. Tammy scored the goals but in terms of hold up play there were many games where he was bossed by opponents. But Tammy like Wesley seems to have a knack of finding a goal.

[AV82]

Some great points raised. It's looking like he'll get his start tonight - fingers crossed he performs!

[KenjiOgiwara]

38 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Most of this Wesley is terrible stuff is just looking for a scapegoat. 

Except that it isn't.  I know it feels nice to take the moral high ground on player development, but this is a case of calling a spade a spade. 

He probably will develop, just like Davis, but right now he's been poor for the large majority of matches he's played and needs to be dropped. He deserves to be dropped. Nothing to do with scapegoating even if it's the go to retort for some. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[Philosopher]

1 minute ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Except that it isn't.  I know it feels nice to take the moral high ground on player development, but this is a case of calling a spade a spade. 

He probably will develop, just like Davis, but right now he's been poor for the large majority of matches he's played and needs to be dropped. He deserves to be dropped. Nothing to do with scapegoating even if it's the go to retort for some. 

For me McGinn's performance at city was poor. I barely even noticed him. But everyone is pick on a striker who has to feed off scraps.

[Dr_Pangloss]

3 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

For me McGinn's performance at city was poor. I barely even noticed him. But everyone is pick on a striker who has to feed off scraps.

McGinn was awful against Brighton too.

Some players are immune from criticism whilst others get it in the neck. A more balanced view of Wesley is that he has his faults but is still adjusting to life at this level in terms of the pace and physicality of this league, at 22 and not a lot of 'miles on the clock' there's still an element of him learning his trade. Despite all this he has scored almost at a rate of 1 in 2. So not all that bad. Yes it would be great if we had another forward, someone who can offer competition and take some of the burden off but we don't, so all things considered he's hardly doing terribly overall.

[KenjiOgiwara]

You are comparing apples and oranges. McGinn has so far had a very good PL season. He's gone a bit off the boil lately for some reason, but there's a reason why there's a ton of links of Man Utd wanting to buy him. He's performing at a high level consistently. 

Wesley is not. 

[villalad21]

At least Mcginn is still contributing to the team when having bad games.

It was him who played the long range pass to Jack which ultimately led to Targett's winner against Brighton.

I feel like the games Wesley is not scoring he's contributes nothing to the team. He doesn't win his aerial duels, he doesn't get stuck in, he falls over by the slightest contact.

 3/10 good games, is not good enough.

Edited October 30, 2019 by villalad21

[MotoMkali]

On 26/10/2019 at 15:06, KentVillan said:

Was never a handball unless you're wearing claret and blue spectacles.

The rules are very clear if your arm increases the profile of your body it is a handball whether it is intentional or not. If it would hit you in the chest no biggie. But it was moving away from him and it influenced where it was ending up which would have been at the feet of mcginn but it instead went to trez or Luiz. 

[MotoMkali]

On 26/10/2019 at 15:05, KentVillan said:

I think that's a bit unfair on him. He's a bit slow to press at times, but mostly his work rate is good.

IMO we play two systems:

• 4-3-3 with a false 9
• 4-1-4-1 / 4-2-3-1 with a lone target man.

Wesley looks pretty decent in the first system and mediocre in the second one. In the first system he can drop deep, lay the ball off, etc. In the second system he finds himself in one-on-one positions with defenders, and lacks the gas to do anything with it.

A striker who can play both roles well will likely cost £40m+ though. I think we just have to accept that at this level and with this kind of spending, whatever striker we signed would have some big flaws in his game.

Completely agree. But 1 comment I will make a bout the target man system is that we can't find him at all. The ball is always 20 or 30 yards away when we play it up to him so the defender is already in a better position and he has to be very physical to get in front of them which often leads to him giving fouls away like the arm gundogan's face or him getting in position but the ball bouncing off of him because he is still fighting to stace beneath the ball. If we played it close to him I think he would look a lot better as a target man but as it stands it is very hard for him to keep the ball with him being so isolated. 

[villalad21]

2 hours ago, Philosopher said:

I remember Tammy having many poor games last season

Tammy still contributed to the team in the games he didn't score.

Wesley doesn't. Wesley is either falling on the floor or getting bossed in the air.

[Zatman]

15 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Davis also got service from a much worse team with Bruceball. 

 

We scored 72 goals that season. Davis got 2. Bit part midfield players like Bjarnason and Onomah got more and 1 more than Gabby who didnt play after the first month or so

[useless]

All this talk of dropping Wesley for Davis is utterly futile, as presently apart from cup games it isn't going to happen. We've just won two of our last three leauge games with Wesley scoring two goals and getting an assist. We're trying to get Wesley used to the English league, we aren't just going to suddenly drop him at the exact point that he starts showing some form.

[villalad21]

2 minutes ago, Zatman said:

We scored 72 goals that season. Davis got 2. Bit part midfield players like Bjarnason and Onomah got more and 1 more than Gabby who didnt play after the first month or so

You realize you can still contribute greatly to the team without scoring right?

Heskey is a great example of this. Yes i know he scored many goals in his career, mainly at Liverpool. But in many games he didn't. But in the games Heskey didn't score he did contribute greatly in other ways.

Edited October 30, 2019 by villalad21

[Philosopher]

2 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Tammy still contributed to the team in the games he didn't score.

Wesley doesn't. Wesley is either falling on the floor or getting bossed in the air.

This isn't really true, you take Tammy's goals away and he offered very little. He is essentially a tall poacher that can hold it up against weak centre backs.

[AVTuco]

Just now, villalad21 said:

You realize you can still contribute greatly to the team without scoring right?

Heskey is a great example of this. Yes i know he scored many goals in his career, mainly at Liverpool. But in many games he didn't. But in the games Heskey didn't score he did contribute greatly in other ways.

While that is true, goal scoring is a central piece in what a CF should do. 

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, Philosopher said:

This isn't really true, you take Tammy's goals away and he offered very little. He is essentially a tall poacher that can hold it up against weak centre backs.

I disagree with you.

Tammy worked very hard. Chasing down every ball.

Also a much better target man than Wesley. Bringing other's into the play. His link up play is also better.

[Philosopher]

1 minute ago, villalad21 said:

You realize you can still contribute greatly to the team without scoring right?

Heskey is a great example of this. Yes i know he scored many goals in his career, mainly at Liverpool. But in many games he didn't. But in the games Heskey didn't score he did contribute greatly in other ways.

This is true, but ultimately a strikers job is to score goals! And heskey actually scored a lot of goals. Heskey had a season at Liverpool where he scored 25 goals and outshone Micheal Owen

 

23 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

At least Mcginn is still contributing to the team when having bad games.

It was him who played the long range pass to Jack which ultimately led to Targett's winner against Brighton.

I feel like the games Wesley is not scoring he's contributes nothing to the team. He doesn't win his aerial duels, he doesn't get stuck in, he falls over by the slightest contact.

 3/10 good games, is not good enough.

I love McGinn but I am.not blind to his faults. I like Wesley but am not blind to his faults. Every player has their limitations. Two out of 3 games Mings has made a mistake which directly led to a goal conceded. McGinn's defensive discipline is terrible, and when he is disciplined he looks poor. But we can only play 2 offensive midfielders. Jack has been very selfless to move left in order to keep allowing McGinn that freedom. 

The point I am making is apart from maybe Jack every player is a work in progress and so is the team. Wesley has earned his selection through goals, which is the primary factor on which they are judged. 

Wesley has been made a scapegoat FACT! We lost to the best attacking team in the world not because our lone forward had a bad day, but because the right side or our defence got terrorized by one of the best inside forwards in the world and Tyrone Mings made a rookie mistake. That is without mentioning VAR.

So just stop with the silliness.

[Philosopher]

10 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I disagree with you.

Tammy worked very hard. Chasing down every ball.

Also a much better target man than Wesley. Bringing other's into the play. His link up play is also better.

No way. Tammy got slaughtered by Chelsea fans for his poor hold up game. Tomori shut him down, as did Jansen, as did Dawson, that's just off the top of my head. The Chelsea fans love tammy for goals simple as. Same as Villa fans.  

Wesley ran himself into the ground against Brighton that is ended up with cramp after 75 minutes. He always closes down the centre back.