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Wesley Moraes

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4 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

Re scouting, yes obviously I didn’t really think that that needed stating. I don’t agree with your conclusion that Wesley hasn’t been a success, I think that statement is premature.

I’ve already said we need another striker, I don’t though think he needs to be replaced.

Is it? Over a quarter of the season is gone and he doesn't seem up to the standard required. How long do we wait? I can't see it being premature at all. 

If the case is that he deserves a full season to get up to speed (which I completely agree with), then it's a recruitment issue. When we didn't sign another striker, Deano & co thought he was up to the challenge of carrying our frontline. It's clear he isn't. It's safe to say the signing of Wesley as a first team player hasn't been a success in any way. 

Now if we survive this season I won't have a problem with this signing and him coming up to speed over a season, but I genuinly don't know if we will survive with a poor striker. 

 

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Just now, villalad21 said:


My point is.Keinan is 2 years younger and look more promising.

No, your point was what I said previously. That’s the point you made, that Wesley can’t develop.

We are talking about Wesley, not Davis he has his own thread and a comparison between the two of them is irrelevant, you are writing Wesley off in October of his first season in English football. There isn’t anything further for us to discuss on the lad.

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2 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

He really doesn't though.

He has never, in his entire career, played as well as Wesley did against Everton. I've also never seen Davis finish as clinically as Wesley did against Arsenal and Norwich. Wesley has shown far more promising signs than Davis ever has for us.

I don't care about the past.

I only care about what i see in the present.

Fact is, at least to me. Every time i see Keinan in a cameo he looks more promising.

Edited by villalad21

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1 minute ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

He really doesn't though.

He has never, in his entire career, played as well as Wesley did against Everton. I've also never seen Davis finish as clinically as Wesley did against Arsenal and Norwich. Wesley has shown far more promising signs than Davis ever has for us.

Completely disagree. Davis has traits that I really really think is promising. He is direct, strong, fighter. He has pretty good feet for a big man. The only big negative is him not scoring a lot, which is hard to do when you aren't given a continued run. Wesley hardly has a good trait going for him. 

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1 minute ago, villalad21 said:

I don't care about the past.

I only care about what i see in the present.

Fact is, at least to me. Every time i see Keinan in a cameo he looks more promising.

So that's in the past then?

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Just now, KenjiOgiwara said:

Is it? Over a quarter of the season is gone and he doesn't seem up to the standard required. How long do we wait? I can't see it being premature at all. 

If the case is that he deserves a full season to get up to speed (which I completely agree with), then it's a recruitment issue. When we didn't sign another striker, Deano & co thought he was up to the challenge of carrying our frontline. It's clear he isn't. It's safe to say the signing of Wesley as a first team player hasn't been a success in any way. 

Now if we survive this season I won't have a problem with this signing and him coming up to speed over a season, but I genuinly don't know if we will survive with a poor striker. 

 

Yes, in my opinion.

You said he hasn’t been a success. That means you’ve already made your assessment of him as a failure after a quarter of a season at the age of 22. That’s the very definition of premature in my book.

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Yes. Obviously if he picks it up from now on, we can revisit that. Any assessment is obviously made from the 10 first matches.

It's basically 8 poor and 2 good matches. Nobody is saying he can't come good. What's being said is that we can't afford carrying someone in a key position and he isn't up to the standard yet. That's not premature I'd say. That's just observing what's in front of us. To be sure of PL survival we need to replace him in January from what I can see. 

He doesn't seem to have any obvious attributes to play off, so lets assume he will continue his current form for the season. That means 6 good matches and 22 poor ones going into the month of May. And that's assuming he can carry on facing tougher teams (after a relatively easy start). Based on yesterday this isn't the case. 

 

Edited by KenjiOgiwara

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1 minute ago, TrentVilla said:

Yes, in my opinion.

You said he hasn’t been a success. That means you’ve already made your assessment of him as a failure after a quarter of a season at the age of 22. That’s the very definition of premature in my book.

4 in 10 for a player still getting to grips with things and outside of a decent goal return has put in one 10/10 performance against Everton and showed ample signs of his potential and qualities outside of that game. 

Yet according to some he's "absolutely shit" and a "disgrace". Moreover a player with 3 goals in 44 appearances, most of those appearances at the Championship level is deemed "more promising". Absolutely ridiculous. 

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25 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

So, in short at the age of 22 you think he has reached his peak and can’t develop. Ok.

No, he’s saying he doesn’t seem to have any attributes that you can work with. He will develop, and I’m sure he will get better, but I doubt he’ll be anywhere near good enough even when that happens.

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Doesn't seem so fantastic when 2 of those where against a injury hampered Norwich side in a 5-1 thrashing, where he also missed a penalty. Or that he has been awful in 8 our of 10 matches. 

Davis contributes a whole lot more to our play when he isn't scoring which is something Wesley fails to do. 

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It's obvious he's not the finished article and it's also quite clear that we don't quite play to his strengths and vice versa. Games like yesterday expose that more than any other, the games where we are on the backfoot from whistle to whistle and he's isolated and living off scraps he looks poor. But many, many strikers will look poor in that situation.

Writing off Wesley is stupid at this point, and I suspect a lot of it is because he has an irritating persona and his style of play, combined to ours, and equally the situation of both the club and him, combine to make him look worse than he perhaps is. You have to bear in mind he's still quite young, he's also come to professional football quite late and he's made an enormous step up - he's gone from a weak league where he was in a strong team and was able to flat track bully teams. He's now in a promoted side in the middle of a full on rebuild in the hardest league in the world, playing in a style he has less experience of. It's going to take a while to come good.

Undoubtedly we shouldn't be relying on him, and it's clear the club knew this as well as we obviously wanted Maupay, but it is what it is. Wesley has had good and bad moments, but overall he's scored 4 goals and in games where it all clicks he looks threatening, he's quite good at bringing players into the game when the ball is played to his feet. In games like yesterday he's going to look shit when we're struggling to get anything to him.

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5 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

4 in 10 for a player still getting to grips with things and outside of a decent goal return has put in one 10/10 performance against Everton and showed ample signs of his potential and qualities outside of that game. 

Yet according to some he's "absolutely shit" and a "disgrace". Moreover a player with 3 goals in 44 appearances, most of those appearances at the Championship level is deemed "more promising". Absolutely ridiculous. 

Some of his actions on the pitch have been a disgrace. Throwing his arms around, sulking, pretending to be unconscious, diving. 

I don’t like his attitude as a player and it just so happens he’s really poor with it.

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4 minutes ago, Chindie said:

It's obvious he's not the finished article and it's also quite clear that we don't quite play to his strengths and vice versa.

Okey this is said a lot. What's his strengths we need to play on? 

He can't head. 
He can't challenge and move past a player. 

He doesn't seem especially fast, nor does he like to move into channels. 

He doesn't like to get physical.

He doesn't know how to shoot.

Assuming we agree on his 2 yard finishing (or tap ins) is his strength, is that really the excuse? We are not seeing the best of him since we aren't giving him enough tap ins?

He seems alright at passing backwards. Why would we then play him and not another midfielder? 

 

Edited by KenjiOgiwara

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10 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Yes. Obviously if he picks it up from now on, we can revisit that. Any assessment is obviously made from the 10 first matches.

It's basically 8 poor and 2 good matches. Nobody is saying he can't come good. What's being said is that we can't afford carrying someone in a key position and he isn't up to the standard yet. That's not premature I'd say. That's just observing what's in front of us. To be sure of PL survival we need to replace him in January from what I can see. 

He doesn't seem to have any obvious attributes to play off, so lets assume he will continue his current form for the season. That means 6 good matches and 22 poor ones going into the month of May. And that's assuming he can carry on facing tougher teams (after a relatively easy start). Based on yesterday this isn't the case. 

 

Its a definitive statement, it implies that it is a set outcome.

And yes some are saying he can't come good, that is precisely what some are saying and what your posts suggest you agree with. I think your assessment of him and those of others are premature, no real point going around and around on that.

 

 

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1 minute ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Okey this is said a lot. What's his strengths we need to play on? 

He can't head. 
He can't challenge and move past a player. 

He doesn't seem especially fast, nor does he like to move into channels. 

He doesn't like to get physical.

He doesn't know how to shoot.

Assuming we agree on his 2 yard finishing (or tap ins) is his strength, is that really the excuse? We are not seeing the best of him since we aren't giving him enough tap ins?

 

It’s Scott Hogan all over again!
 

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1 minute ago, Delphinho123 said:

It’s Scott Hogan all over again!
 

To be fair to Scott, he actually worked hard to be shit. Wesley isn't quite there. 

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9 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

No, he’s saying he doesn’t seem to have any attributes that you can work with. He will develop, and I’m sure he will get better, but I doubt he’ll be anywhere near good enough even when that happens.

He doesn't have any attributes that you can work with? If that is your view on the lad then no point us discussing him any further.

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Just now, KenjiOgiwara said:

To be fair to Scott, he actually worked hard to be shit. Wesley isn't quite there. 

That’s actually true. Hogan had a decent attitude but he had no attributes to his game to make him a decent striker. 
Wesley is exactly the same, he just throws his arms around a bit more and blames others.

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