Christchurch terror attack

[Dr_Pangloss]

21 hours ago, mjmooney said:

I reserve the right to trash Islam, just as I trash Christianity and all the other superstitions. But I hold no ill-will to the individuals who adhere to them, let alone wish them harm. 

Totally with you. People should be able to voice atheist views and even campaign them, just as most religions voice views publicly and attempt to recruit members. This is all part of a free society. The ethical demand on atheists should at all times be such that they do not incite hatred. There's an enormous difference between 'trashing' religion on atheist grounds and preaching hatred with the view of inciting violence.

[blandy]

12 hours ago, snowychap said:

The problem is being unable to separate people from the ideas they hold.

If people are so wedded to their ideologies or religions that they can only see themselves in those terms then it is their own problem if they see a criticism of that idea as something personal.

That does go for adherents to Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Capitalism, Socialism, &c.

Incitement to hatred and physical retribution towards those holding particular beliefs/ideologies should obviously not be confused with criticism of the ideas held (nor be allowed to be conflated with such).

It is “their own” problem....until they act on it. Then it’s our problem too.

Which isn’t to say critiquing ideologies or religions should be stopped,  but it is to say that if we want tolerance and peace, then intolerance isn’t the best starting point. For example, if I were to say that “there’s no place for this primitive, outdated religious sect in the modern world” that is the sort of starting point, the sort of trashing, that makes its followers feel like they and their way of life are being attacked  once you get a bunch of people who consider themselves under threat....it can escalate badly.

religion is different to capitalism, socialism, or any “system” of organisation for an economy because those are flexible and there’s a choice. With religion, where the believer is by definition under the control/ influence / guidance of a “higher being” the believer has no real choice, they are not, in their view,  the chooser - their sky fairy is (damn, I’m guilty again). They can come to a point of no longer believing, of course, to leave the religion behind and no longer be religious, but I think that if you believe your destiny is determined by a higher power, this is a different scale to preferring one economic model over another.

Where to fit murderous white supremacist terrorists into that mix, I don’t know. I hope that the remarkable reaction to this attack in NZ would do much to bring even white supremacist bell ends to realise that (in this case) Muslims are far from a threat and more like better people than they are.

 

[Junxs]

22 hours ago, mjmooney said:

I reserve the right to trash Islam, just as I trash Christianity and all the other superstitions. But I hold no ill-will to the individuals who adhere to them, let alone wish them harm. 

This reminds me of the people I work with, majority of who claim to be Atheists.

Im Muslim, whilst most of them accept me for who I am, there is this one guy who always has sly little digs - always passes a comment about me not drinking or eating halal meat.. once even said to me I'd never find him playing with imaginary friends and such. I just ignore him or laugh it off, don't really like getting into debates.

Well it was interesting over xmas, as every year I always swap shifts to work 25th December to allow my colleagues to have xmas with their families. Well this chap approached me about swapping shifts so he could have xmas off. When I reminded him about his Atheist belief and imaginary friends he got all embarrassed. He then tried to justify it by saying its not a religious thing. Of course I swapped but it felt good to make a point. 

 

[chrisp65]

If only they'd been randoms in a supermarket. Then we wouldn't have to carefully explain the etiquette and limits of trashing islam.

 

 

 

 

[mjmooney]

1 minute ago, Junxs said:

This reminds me of the people I work with, majority of who claim to be Atheists.

Im Muslim, whilst most of them accept me for who I am, there is this one guy who always has sly little digs - always passes a comment about me not drinking or eating halal meat.. once even said to me I'd never find him playing with imaginary friends and such. I just ignore him or laugh it off, don't really like getting into debates.

Well it was interesting over xmas, as every year I always swap shifts to work 25th December to allow my colleagues to have xmas with their families. Well this chap approached me about swapping shifts so he could have xmas off. When I reminded him about his Atheist belief and imaginary friends he got all embarrassed. He then tried to justify it by saying its not a religious thing. Of course I swapped but it felt good to make a point. 

 

I wish I hadn't used (quoted, actually) the word 'trashed', as it implies a more aggressive attitude than I intended. I would never do that sort of sly dig with a work colleague - but if we get into a discussion about religion, I could not do otherwise than be honest, and say that I consider all religious faith to be founded on nonsense. If that's offends you, I'm sorry. None of which takes away from my disgust at the vile creature that perpetrated the Christchurch (ironic place name) attack. I don't consider Muslims as any sort of 'enemy' - that makes no more sense than blaming harmless Christian churchgoers for these fascist psychopaths. 

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

For example, if I were to say that “there’s no place for this primitive, outdated religious sect in the modern world” that is the sort of starting point

If you were to say that then it would sound as though you've picked out a single religion to have a go at rather than had the 'sort of starting point' that considers all religious faith as the same (whether it be Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, &c.).

Yes, of course, people should consider the language that they use and the consequences of what they say as well as what they do. Dropping a metaphorical grenade in to a room is unlikely to help anything.

I don't accept your take on religion not being a choice and therefore different to other ideas and ideologies that people hold with a great deal of religiosity (and political views have been and are held in that same way, i.e. on the basis of almost blind faith).

In the end, it is a choice. It only isn't a choice when it is forced on people (and I grant that there are many instances where this happens, not least to children). Otherwise, it's as much of a choice as anything else.

You also seem to misrepresent tolerance/intolerance in your post.

Tolerance is accepting that, whilst you may profoundly disagree with someone else (in this case on the concept of religion and criticise the practices that it entails), other people are completely free to think and believe what they want as long as their thoughts and beliefs do not impinge on the lives of others.

[mjmooney]

We should really take this to the religion thread proper, it's not really relevant to this incident. 

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

We should really take this to the religion thread proper, it's not really relevant to this incident. 

I agree. 

I also think that we (by which I mean the political culture generally, rather than people on this thread) are in danger of focusing on the wrong aspects of this crime. It is important that the victims were Muslims, and it essential that we extend solidarity to the Muslim community. However, we should also be clear that while this killer picked this target, and seems to have associated all Muslims with the Ottoman Empire, to judge by his gun, he seems to have been 'inspired' by killers who targeted very different communities. In particular, he seems to admire Anders Breivik, who targeted secular left-wing students, but really the online far-right culture that spawned him also spawned the Charleston church shooting that targeted African American Christians, and the Tree Of Life synagogue shooting as well. The forums and websites that these people belong to hate a wide range of groups, not limited to black people, Muslims and Jews but also women, Latino people and people with left-wing political views generally. In other words, they are fascists, and our response needs to focus on the perpetrators. 

[limpid]

5 hours ago, Junxs said:

Well it was interesting over xmas, as every year I always swap shifts to work 25th December to allow my colleagues to have xmas with their families. Well this chap approached me about swapping shifts so he could have xmas off. When I reminded him about his Atheist belief and imaginary friends he got all embarrassed. He then tried to justify it by saying its not a religious thing. Of course I swapped but it felt good to make a point. 

What does Christmas have to do with any particular religion? It's just another name for the winter solstice. You have to celebrate or the summer won't come back.

[Brumerican]

3 hours ago, limpid said:

What does Christmas have to do with any particular religion? It's just another name for the winter solstice. You have to celebrate or the summer won't come back.

With a Coca Cola truck and a mountain of debt.

[lapal_fan]

It's quite strange hearing Muslims in this thread saying that this is a toxic environment to be in, and then you go onto a lot of Brexit commentary and hear it's the immigrants and migrants that are creating a toxic environment. 

People just don't like "difference" do they? 

Change is scary to a lot of people, while I sit here digging the fact that this planet is growing ever smaller and travel and access to see and experience other cultures is just easier and easier and I love it. 

Then an Australian goes to another country to kill people of a different faith, but who (to him anyway) may or may not have been born and lived in NZ for generations - what a leap of faith! I mean, the **** cheek of it to be honest, I dunno what's happened to the person who committed this atrocity, but I hope he one day realises what the **** he's done, and that he's a **** dickhead. 

 

[Villan_of_oz]

On 15/03/2019 at 19:31, Rodders said:

 

from an elected official. Jesus Christ, that is insane

I hate this go so much, I actually wish him dead just so he'll stop spouting his crap. He got egged on the weekend, by a 17 y.o.

[Chindie]

[A'Villan]

16 hours ago, LondonLax said:

There is a change.org petition to have him removed from parliament. It currently has almost 900k signatures and is the most supported online petition in Australian history. 

Yes. I also voted. Wasn't aware that it had such support. Thanks.

[Wainy316]

I don't really know what thread to put this in but at least 1 dead following a tram shooting in Utrecht.  Gunman at large.

[NurembergVillan]

I'm not crying, you are.

[Dodgyknees]

I popped to my local mosque and posted a card through their door. Just said that I stand by them and am proud to know that there is a mosque in this town, for people to go to.

Just don't want them to feel alone. This island is VERY racist, very negative, toxic, and I just want them to know there are people who stand by them as their brother.

I'm atheist, but I can't stand any form of hate.

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, Dick said:

This island is VERY racist,

U.K ?

going well OT as there is a thread for it already  ,  but this place isn't even close to being VERY racist , if you had to list every country in the world in order of racism we'd be right down near  the bottom

[NurembergVillan]

3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

U.K ?

going well OT as there is a thread for it already  ,  but this place isn't even close to being VERY racist , if you had to list every country in the world in order of racism we'd be right down near  the bottom

Isle of Wight.

They've got a big issue with Wight Supremacy.

[tonyh29]

3 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

Isle of Wight.

They've got a big issue with Wight Supremacy.