Mark Albrighton Posted February 21, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, sharkyvilla said: It's slightly funnier I guess. How about.... At least they’ll have their “things can only get better” celebratory song ready once they’ve been elected into government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 11 hours ago, Risso said: Oh Jesus Christ. Literally nothing could make me turn against a project more quickly than Hodge's involvement. The most disgraceful MP in recent history, bar none. You might appreciate some of the responses in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, peterms said: You think they just woke up one morning this week and thought "You know what, I'm going to form a new party - no, grouping - with a few other people, but I have no idea about what we want to propose, I'm sure something will emerge eventually"? I haven't seen demands for a full manifesto down to the level of pricing policy for plastic bags in supermarkets and the best way to replace the Council Tax. I have seen people asking about whether Brexit is their definjng issue, whether they are for austerity and against renationalisation (as suggested by their voting records); but answer came there none. I really think they weren't planning to launch this early but their hand was somewhat forced by the Luciana Berger situation. As good as confirmed by Vince Cable today where he also said that some of the TIG had also had "desultory" talks about straight defecting to the LibDems but decided jumping ship to an already toxic party wasn't in their best interests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, peterms said: I have seen people asking about whether Brexit is their definjng issue, whether they are for austerity and against renationalisation (as suggested by their voting records); but answer came there none. Not answering probably doesn't help. Personally, I'd have liked their answer to be something along the lines of: "Stop asking questions as if the entire f****** world is black and white, and that nationalisation is purely good or purely bad, and privatisation is purely good or purely bad. And that is possible to think that there are shades of grey, and that nuance exists. And that it's possible to think AT THE SAME TIME that just taxing people more isn't always going to solve every problem, and also that people shouldn't be left to die in the gutter if they've been dealt a shitty hand. And that those two things aren't mutually exclusive positions. And that it's also possible for people to disagree on one thing and agree on another, yet still find a common position of compromise. And doing that doesn't make them a treachorous quisling, nor an apologist for homelessness, nor a closet fascist, nor a Zionist in the pay of the Israeli government. It just makes you, y'know, normal" Yeah, Mike Gaps or whatever he's called should have said something like that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 hours ago, ml1dch said: You don't think that a full manifesto inside two days is quite a big ask? Labour took two years to settle on a Brexit policy after all. Nobody is asking for a full manifesto. However, as @peterms suggested, it is reasonable to expect, in fairly short order, a rough guide to their opinions on Brexit, and on (broad strokes) their view of the economy. There really isn't a lot of time for them to 'settle' on a Brexit policy, when the 29th of March is four weeks away. And these guys aren't aliens who've just beamed in from another dimension, they're politicians who have been privy to all of the discussions (and in some cases, played a fairly central role in the debates thus far). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 6 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: a rough guide to their opinions on Brexit, you can't be serious 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, bickster said: you can't be serious I understand 'they are agin it'. But are they actually arguing for a second referendum? If so, how do they plan to make that eventuality more likely, rather than less (especially since they have explicitly removed one theoretical avenue to that by planning to vote 'confidence', if that situation arose?) If a second referendum doesn't happen, and the choice is voting for May's WA or allowing No Deal, which would they prefer? Etc. Edited February 22, 2019 by HanoiVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: I understand 'they are agin it'. But are they actually arguing for a second referendum? If so, how do they plan to make that eventuality more likely, rather than less (especially since they have explicitly removed one theoretical avenue to that by planning to vote 'confidence', if that situation arose?) If a second referendum doesn't happen, and the choice is voting for May's WA or allowing No Deal, which would they prefer? Etc. Is that a bit like Labour Policy where all options are on the table if they don't get a General Election (a moment which passed some time ago) Come on, you can't hold entities to standards which the entity which you support yourself doesn't adhere to themselves, it's hypocritical 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Is that a bit like Labour Policy where all options are on the table if they don't get a General Election (a moment which passed some time ago) Come on, you can't hold entities to standards which the entity which you support yourself doesn't adhere to themselves, it's hypocritical The People's Vote campaign have not endorsed this breakaway group, and they seem to think that it is, if anything, counterproductive to the goal of getting a second referendum. To some extent, Tiggers seem to want to use the 'Remain' brand in British politics, and if I were heavily invested in that (to be clear, I'm not any more) I would want some way of knowing whether they had a plan to deliver on their marketing, because right now I would be inclined to take the People's Vote idea that this is unhelpful more seriously. The flipside to your argument is that this lack of clarity is what Remainers have blamed Labour for, so they should also blame the new group for the same offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 It's not like Tiggers aren't talking about Brexit. after all: Anna Soubry Doesn’t Rule Out Backing PM’s Brexit Deal To Stop No Deal 'Anna Soubry did not rule out backing Theresa May’s Brexit deal in order to prevent a no-deal exit after being repeatedly pressed by LBC’s Theo Usherwood. The newly independent MP said it would be a “huge dilemma” before adding: “I don’t know what I’d do”. Ms Soubry, who was presenting her debut LBC show, quit the Conservative Party on Wednesday. She was one of three MPs who resigned the whip after criticising Theresa May’s handling of Brexit and eurosceptics Tories. The MP for Broxtowe is now campaigning for a so-called People’s Vote and told LBC she would back the Prime Minister if she promised a second referendum. But, if that was not put on the table, Theo pressed Ms Soubry over whether she’d vote through the deal as a last resort in order to stop no deal. “A huge dilemma,” she replied. Theo asked: “So you would support [Theresa May’s deal]?” Ms Soubry responded: “I don’t know what I’d do. “I just can’t see myself voting for something that I don’t agree with.”' https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/anna-soubry-rule-out-backing-pms-brexit-deal/ If they're talking about it, it's fair for people who might be interested in the group to know whether this is Soubry talking for herself, or if this represents the views of the group, or something in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: It's not like Tiggers aren't talking about Brexit. after all: Anna Soubry Doesn’t Rule Out Backing PM’s Brexit Deal To Stop No Deal 'Anna Soubry did not rule out backing Theresa May’s Brexit deal in order to prevent a no-deal exit after being repeatedly pressed by LBC’s Theo Usherwood. The newly independent MP said it would be a “huge dilemma” before adding: “I don’t know what I’d do”. Ms Soubry, who was presenting her debut LBC show, quit the Conservative Party on Wednesday. She was one of three MPs who resigned the whip after criticising Theresa May’s handling of Brexit and eurosceptics Tories. The MP for Broxtowe is now campaigning for a so-called People’s Vote and told LBC she would back the Prime Minister if she promised a second referendum. But, if that was not put on the table, Theo pressed Ms Soubry over whether she’d vote through the deal as a last resort in order to stop no deal. “A huge dilemma,” she replied. Theo asked: “So you would support [Theresa May’s deal]?” Ms Soubry responded: “I don’t know what I’d do. “I just can’t see myself voting for something that I don’t agree with.”' https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/anna-soubry-rule-out-backing-pms-brexit-deal/ If they're talking about it, it's fair for people who might be interested in the group to know whether this is Soubry talking for herself, or if this represents the views of the group, or something in between. And show me where Labour has been equivocally clear on the same issue, or even for that matter the Tory rebels, or the SNP even Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: If they're talking about it, it's fair for people who might be interested in the group to know whether this is Soubry talking for herself, or if this represents the views of the group, or something in between. Hold on a mo'/ A radio person asked an MP a question about what she would personally do in the event that a hypothetical thing were to be threatened (choice between no deal or May deal). Now this is currently going on all the time to individual MPs "will you resign if ERG do this? or Jezza does that..." to various labour and tory MPs etc. No one is taking the answers as Labour or Tory policy. They are the independent views of various people (or sometimes the burps of sheep, incapable of independent thought or action "I support the PM and the party", "I support Labour and Catweazle"). These Tiggers have specifically said they're NOT a party, they are independent MPs with similar views on (amongst other things) Brexit. Asking for detailed "party" lines or whatever is to completely ignore that they're not a chuffing party. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, blandy said: Hold on a mo'/ A radio person asked an MP a question about what she would personally do in the event that a hypothetical thing were to be threatened (choice between no deal or May deal). Now this is currently going on all the time to individual MPs "will you resign if ERG do this? or Jezza does that..." to various labour and tory MPs etc. No one is taking the answers as Labour or Tory policy. They are the independent views of various people (or sometimes the burps of sheep, incapable of independent thought or action "I support the PM and the party", "I support Labour and Catweazle"). These Tiggers have specifically said they're NOT a party, they are independent MPs with similar views on (amongst other things) Brexit. Asking for detailed "party" lines or whatever is to completely ignore that they're not a chuffing party. If they're all independents, then why did the ex Labour MPs club together on a podium and announce their resignations at the same time, on the same platform for the same reasons? Why create a company and ask for donations? Or a website or Twitter. They're playing for time and trying to dodge difficult questions. They will at some point become a party. I don't see anyone asking for a manifesto, but clubbing together and saying 'the rest are all crap and we're really different' is really quite unconvincing if you can't explain why you are different. I'd get it if there wasn't the website and all the branding and social media stuff. Edited February 22, 2019 by PompeyVillan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said: They're playing for time and trying to dodge difficult questions. You just described politicians 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said: I don't see anyone asking for a manifesto, but clubbing together and saying 'the rest are all crap and we're really different' is really quite unconvincing if you can't explain why you are different. I'd get it if there wasn't the website and all the branding and social media stuff. You appear not to have read the website you complain exists but don't know what they're about. Quote We believe: Ours is a great country of which people are rightly proud, where the first duty of government must be to defend its people and do whatever it takes to safeguard Britain’s national security. Britain works best as a diverse, mixed social market economy, in which well-regulated private enterprise can reward aspiration and drive economic progress and where government has the responsibility to ensure the sound stewardship of taxpayer’s money and a stable, fair and balanced economy. A strong economy means we can invest in our public services. We believe the collective provision of public services and the NHS can be delivered through government action, improving health and educational life chances, protecting the public, safeguarding the vulnerable, ensuring dignity at every stage of life and placing individuals at the heart of decision-making. The people of this country have the ability to create fairer, more prosperous communities for present and future generations. We believe that this creativity is best realised in a society which fosters individual freedom and supports all families. The barriers of poverty, prejudice and discrimination facing individuals should be removed and advancement occur on the basis of merit, with inequalities reduced through the extension of opportunity, giving individuals the skills and means to open new doors and fulfil their ambitions. Individuals are capable of taking responsibility if opportunities are offered to them, everybody can and should make a contribution to society and that contribution should be recognised. Paid work should be secure and pay should be fair. Our free media, the rule of law, and our open, tolerant and respectful democratic society should be cherished and renewed. We believe that our parliamentary democracy in which our elected representatives deliberate, decide and provide leadership, held accountable by their whole electorate is the best system of representing the views of the British people. In order to face the challenges and opportunities presented by globalisation, migration and technological advances, we believe the multilateral, international rules-based order must be strengthened and reformed. We believe in maintaining strong alliances with our closest European and international allies on trade, regulation, defence, security and counter-terrorism As part of the global community we have a responsibility to future generations to protect our environment, safeguard the planet, plan development sustainably and to act on the urgency of climate change. Power should be devolved to the most appropriate level, trusting and involving local communities. More powers and representation should be given to local government to act in the best interests of their communities. TIG Official 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 That's just a load of blah, boilerplate waffle that everyone from Diane Abbott to Jacob Rees-Mogg would agree with. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: That's just a load of blah, boilerplate waffle that everyone from Diane Abbott to Jacob Rees-Mogg would agree with. You just described politics 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 46 minutes ago, blandy said: You just described politics You're on form today Pete! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, blandy said: You just described politics I get that you're joking, but obviously the left of the Labour party and the right of the Conservative party do disagree, about lots of things. It's a mark of how little that boilerplate says that they would find very little to disagree with in it. I don't think it can be used as evidence of them 'explaining why they're different', as @PompeyVillan mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 Three Councillors who've recently quit the Labour Party on Wirral council have just grouped together, currently unrelated to the Westminster Group but their stories of intimidation and bullying from the "Hard Left" of the party are pretty similar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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