Frédéric Guilbert

[Mjvilla]

Just now, gordy said:

Thats all good mate, were allowed to disagree, its good discourse.

Honestly watching our team lately looked like a back 3 of Engels, Mings and Guilbert as 3 CB with 2 wing backs.

We could put 10 men back there and it would still be like a knife through butter!!

[Tom13]

3 hours ago, gordy said:

Thats all good mate, were allowed to disagree, its good discourse.

Honestly watching our team lately looked like a back 3 of Engels, Mings and Guilbert as 3 CB with 2 wing backs.

Elmo was part of the front 3.

[TRO]

On 09/03/2020 at 19:17, weedman said:

I do think the majority of players we complain about are the older ones, obviously everyone wants the young ones to improve, but they don't play because we play the older players because they're on 60k a week and can't be left on the bench. We tend to keep these players, not playing or being loaned out, until they're in their early 20's then they have to rebuild their career in the lower leagues. It's not the coaching that's wrong, it's the lack of game time because we need instant success. A Freddie Guilbert or a Wesley get written off in their first 6 months with us so we can play someone like Elmo, even Samatta is at his peak and very unlikely to improve and not many would want Wesley playing ahead of him. We lambast young players for being inconsistent, demand that older, more experienced players are played in their place then get surprised when the young players don't develop until they leave us

The likes of Cahill and Albrighton left because they weren't starters, we played Zat Knight and I don't remember who ahead of them, it's a recurring theme. We blow our budget on old players at the cost of the youth, it'd classic short termism. We sold Nathan Baker to sign John Terry. I don't think Baker would have been a world beater or anything, and I don't think he could have been considered young, but last season when we were playing an injured Chester and Jedinak at CB we could have used him. 

Us signing players on the decline because they're a little bit better now or a little bit more consistent now is why none of our youth players seem to develop. Jack was fairly quickly changed from promising youth player making his debut to first name on the team sheet. He absolutely blossomed with the pressure and the minutes. He wasn't great at first in the championship, but regular game time saw him grow into the best player in the league. He wasn't the best at first in the PL, but regular game time has seen him grow into one of the best players. 

Give the likes of Luiz, Nakamba, Wesley, Guilbert, Konsa etc regular game time and we'll reap the benefits in the future, in the past we'd have a load of players in their late 20's or early 30's playing those positions, finish comfortably mid table and complain that none of our younger players are improving. Sure, mid table would be great, but if you consistently buy rather than develop players eventually you'll get it wrong and go down, and you'll never improve beyond mid table. 

Cahill and albrighton, were let go due to a common fault over the years....lack of managerial judgment.....players like Baker went due to financial constraints, there again questionable judgment.

Jack was always a talent, but couldn't apply it, due to alack of strength on the ball,this was picked up and Jack after recovering from his injury, went on a strength building crash course with Ollie Stevenson, the rest is history.

years back game time was not mentioned as much.....you had to win the shirt, by playing exceptionally well in the lower teams.....that is exactly how Gareth Barry got in.....Gary Shaw was burning it up at 17 and introduced as a result, so was Brian Little.....you had to earn your place, not be gifted it....that nurtured the the right mental approach and developed the fight in a player.

The criteria for a young player should be, we just can't not play him....they have to show the appetite for the big stage.

i think we have to be careful, that nothing is questioned and everything is inevitable....everything is not inevitable, its a result of good or bad decision making.

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by TRO

[VillaChris]

To me he's just going through an awful run of form. Let's remember AEM had a shocking run last xmas when he was a liability in the Stoke and Leeds home games (remember that kid Spurs signed ripping him to shreds in that second half) yet he got things together and was solid in the run in.

Gulibert showed enough in the early part of the season to suggest he could be a decent player. I think him and Engels are similar, looked like they'd be bargains in early part of the season but premier league is long and very tough for a reason and they've both struggled since December.

Certainly no reason to get rid of him imo. Keep him around for next season whenever that actually is going to be.

[VillaChris]

7 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Jack Grealish was in a team relegated from the PL rock bottom with one the worst ever points totals. Wonder what happened to that fella.

For real though, I have no idea why people continue to judge a player based on his team's performances. Unless you're absolutely world class, chances are you're not going to be able to drag your team with you if they're just shit. Which is fine, we don't need world class players. We just need PL ones.

It took him two years to mature and become the player we all wanted him to be?

Patience my dear friend.

[sheepyvillian]

Aside from Grealish, Freddy has been my favourite player this season. He has that attitude about him which is so infectious. I really think he will become a top right back for us.

[hippo]

At the time we signed him we looked destined for another season in the championship. He was signed with that in mind.

Sure early season when results were reasonable we loved his work rate and last ditch tackles. But even then his positioning and passing was poor. 

Sometimes poor players come back as much better ones - a few examples cited up thread. More often than not though they remain poor. We shouldn't really expect too much from Freddie Imo - whatever the division next season

[sharkyvilla]

2 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

Aside from Grealish, Freddy has been my favourite player this season. He has that attitude about him which is so infectious. I really think he will become a top right back for us.

Me too.  I really like Targett as well.

[TRO]

I think both full backs are concern for me......and the 2 subs have issues too.

both have positioning issues and that has serious consequences at this level.

Freddie does have a bit of spirit at times and does throw himself in.....but when we are on the back foot, he looks lost.....he also struggles with big physical forwards in the air.

I think he has got worse as the season has progressed.....but Targett is no better, links up with Jack Well and offensively, much better than defensively, but too slow and lumbering.....seems too resigned ,when a cross comes in ,as opposed to gutted.

not for for me, either of them, in their current form.

Edited April 19, 2020 by TRO

[sir_gary_cahill]

24 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think both full backs are concern for me......and the 2 subs have issues too.

both have positioning issues and that has serious consequences at this level.

Freddie does have a bit of spirit at times and does throw himself in.....but when we are on the back foot, he looks lost.....he also struggles with big physical forwards in the air.

I think he has got worse as the season has progressed.....but Targett is no better, links up with Jack Well and offensively, much better than defensively, but too slow and lumbering.....seems to resigned when a cross comes in as opposed to gutted.

not for for me, either of them, in their current form.

For once, I am going to disagree with you, I think for where we are, a newly promoted team, both of them are good full backs. In order to sign better players in those positions, we’d need to spend £20m on either full back position and I don’t think we’re in a position to do that

[TRO]

23 minutes ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

For once, I am going to disagree with you, I think for where we are, a newly promoted team, both of them are good full backs. In order to sign better players in those positions, we’d need to spend £20m on either full back position and I don’t think we’re in a position to do that

Thats fine.

"for where we are"....but what comes first the chicken or the egg.

maybe, we are "where we are" due to players not being good enough, not the other way around. 

How will we ever improve, if we think everything we do is inevitable, for "where we are"

we have to try and defy "where we are" not use it as mitigation.

I still think we have much complacency in our ranks.

Edited April 18, 2020 by TRO

[sir_gary_cahill]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Thats fine.

"for where we are"....but what comes first the chicken or the egg.

maybe, we are "where we are" due to players not being good enough, not the other way around. 

How will we ever improve, if we think everything we do is inevitable, for "where we are"

we have to try and defy "where we are" not use it as mitigation.

I still think we have much complacency in our ranks.

I think you are right, however we don’t have a divine right to finish in any given position, we have to earn it. If we finish 17th this season, we’ve had a great season. We did very well to get to the Carabao Cup final, we were unlucky to lose on the day. You think that we have complacency from the players or fans or both? I think there is an element of complacency from our fans and players alike, we have an attitude of ‘’we’re Aston Villa, we have a school of thought that we belong in the Premier League. Even when we’re in The Championship, our fans and players still think we belong in the Premier League, we have to earn the right to play in the Premier League. I probably haven’t worded that very well

Edited April 18, 2020 by sir_gary_cahill

[TRO]

6 hours ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

I think you are right, however we don’t have a divine right to finish in any given position, we have to earn it. If we finish 17th this season, we’ve had a great season. We did very well to get to the Carabao Cup final, we were unlucky to lose on the day. You think that we have complacency from the players or fans or both? I think there is an element of complacency from our fans and players alike, we have an attitude of ‘’we’re Aston Villa, we have a school of thought that we belong in the Premier League. Even when we’re in The Championship, our fans and players still think we belong in the Premier League, we have to earn the right to play in the Premier League. I probably haven’t worded that very well

We don't have a divine right to anything......but we have to strive for it and then earn it as you say.

Both.

I think after years of demise, complacency drifts in with fans and then players alike, fans naturally want to be upbeat,so look for mitigation in defeat.....I think we accept second best a tad too easily and dress it up as the best we can do.....I am not trying to be harsh, just the way I see it.

Naturally, we think we belong in the Premier League, but your true position is where the league table says you are.

 

 

[sir_gary_cahill]

18 minutes ago, TRO said:

We don't have a divine right to anything......but we have to strive for it and then earn it as you say.

Both.

I think after years of demise, complacency drifts in with fans and then players alike, fans naturally want to be upbeat,so look for mitigation in defeat.....I think we accept second best a tad too easily and dress it up as the best we can do.....I am not trying to be harsh, just the way I see it.

Naturally, we think we belong in the Premier League, but your true position is where the league table says you are.

 

 

I think you are correct again

[Adbo9]

I totally aggree with all of the above 

I also really hate the term "they're OK for where we are at the moment"   ……………… If you strive to be competing we shouldn't be "making do" in my opinion...….. if we were in a transitional period and needed some bodies, especially at full back cos I personally don't rate the two we've signed at all, with Targett being a big money purchase well over £10M if I remember.  If we we weren't in a position to sign and attract the fullbacks to push us up the league, we should have bought a couple of older heads, or steady options cheaper for a season of consolidation.   Maybe someone like Kieran Gibbs at £3M would have been better value for us than Targett for a season until we can attract the quality fullbacks we need.     Instead I think we've personally chucked best part of £15M on Targett who was a reserve at Southampton - didn't make sense to me at all.   We could have held back over £10M and either spent elsewhere on better quality, or kept it in the bank...……… 

 

This isn't a Targett/Guilbert witch hunt either, I think it goes for our whole summer transfer policy...……………. I aggree we had to sign a lot of players and spread the cash, so I just think a few players in the mould of Kieran Gibbs (past there best, but wouldn't let you down and give 7/10 performances weekly) would have been better short term bets...……… then also, if you do go down, chances are youll have the best side in the championship without the need to asset strip.

Got my tin hat on, but if I was manager I would have signed Pontus Jansson, Kieran Gibbs rather than Targett and Engels - and wed have saved £15M and I don't think wed be any worse off football wise, maybe wed be better off - who knows...…………… the same goes for Nakamba and Luiz...……… wed have all loved Kalvin Phillips, but the ££ was a pisstake if you believe the media - but there were some decent cheaper options out there we could have got...………. 

then again, I suppose its not as easy from behind a keyboard...…… 

[sne]

No doubt could we have gotten more value for money with our signings on a whole.

But as for Guilbert he was signed on a pre-contract last January when we were sitting mid table in the Championship so he likely was signed with Championship football in mind.

[Tomaszk]

1 hour ago, sne said:

No doubt could we have gotten more value for money with our signings on a whole.

But as for Guilbert he was signed on a pre-contract last January when we were sitting mid table in the Championship so he likely was signed with Championship football in mind.

I think he needed that year in the Championship as well really.

Love his attitude, needs to try and get that consistency and improve his positioning.

[sne]

2 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

I think he needed that year in the Championship as well really.

Love his attitude, needs to try and get that consistency and improve his positioning.

Well hopefully this season in the PL was even more helpful than a season in the Championship would have been.

I'd say that's very likely

[flashingqwerty]

On 18/04/2020 at 20:56, TRO said:

We don't have a divine right to anything......but we have to strive for it and then earn it as you say.

Both.

I think after years of demise, complacency drifts in with fans and then players alike, fans naturally want to be upbeat,so look for mitigation in defeat.....I think we accept second best a tad too easily and dress it up as the best we can do.....I am not trying to be harsh, just the way I see it.

Naturally, we think we belong in the Premier League, but your true position is where the league table says you are.

 

 

Tro, seems to me you are contradicting yourself here.

On one hand you say Targett and Guilbert aren't good enough, and say we should be looking for better.

On the other you're saying league position says we aren't a PL team.

Guilbert and Targett are easily low to mid pl fullbacks.  Many of their failings are the result of the sides attacking shape and mentality meaning that defensively they will get caught out of position because they are expected to be an attacking force.

You can't have it both ways i'm afraid.

If i were looking to rebuild this squad, for any level, fullback would be towards, if not at, the bottom of the list.

We've serious issues in goal, at cb, in cm, on the wing and up top (though i think Samatta might turn out to resolve this).  I'd be strengthening most of those areas ahead of fb.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, flashingqwerty said:

Tro, seems to me you are contradicting yourself here.

On one hand you say Targett and Guilbert aren't good enough, and say we should be looking for better.

On the other you're saying league position says we aren't a PL team.

Guilbert and Targett are easily low to mid pl fullbacks.  Many of their failings are the result of the sides attacking shape and mentality meaning that defensively they will get caught out of position because they are expected to be an attacking force.

You can't have it both ways i'm afraid.

If i were looking to rebuild this squad, for any level, fullback would be towards, if not at, the bottom of the list.

We've serious issues in goal, at cb, in cm, on the wing and up top (though i think Samatta might turn out to resolve this).  I'd be strengthening most of those areas ahead of fb.

Firstly, i think i was reinforcing the point, as opposed to contradicting it.....they are not good enough and the league position suggests it too.

Many players are important to replace....but I don't share your view that full backs should be last......they see an awful lot of the ball at home in particular, very important position in my view.

full backs that can defend well are a major asset.

Edited April 21, 2020 by TRO