VillaChris Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, abdulaziz1 said: Did he have a proper run with us anyway? I can't remember how many games he featured in but definitely almost nothing. We put him in for a debut v Man. United IIRC. Not sure how long he'd been with us at that point. I recall being surprised how many games he started after that, think he played a 0-0 v Arsenal and a few other starts as we had loads of injuries at the time. Think he played one of the Bradford legs and that was that for his time here. Sheffield United is an amazing story. It reminds me of the Norwich team that came up under Lambert and were comfortable mid table, guys like Holt and Anthony Pilkington looked world beaters that year. Sometimes you just get a massively peaking underdog team. They are very well coached though. Edited March 9, 2020 by VillaChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjvilla Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 On 07/03/2020 at 12:13, TRO said: Enda stevens. Not quite sure on the point here. To pick 1 full back out of the whole premier league to make your point is odd. Certainly, a full back that doesn't even play in the position of the person who's thread it is, is even odder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 On 07/03/2020 at 12:13, TRO said: Enda stevens. Just out of interest, have you forgotten that the horrendous short termism of our last owners and managers left us needing to buy an entire team this summer? Just wondering, because suggesting we need players like Enda Stevens, who was absolutely awful for us however many years ago and has needed the best part of a decade in the lower leagues to become the player he is now seems crazy to me. What are you suggesting? That we go back in time several years to pick up some players on the cheap that will be coming good this season? We've basically signed a load of Enda Stevens this summer, younger players that should improve as the years go on. It's what we should have done when we first got relegated but instead Xia helped by Wyness and Bruce decided to go ultra short term and signed all players with so sell on value and massive wages. Smith and NSWE are trying to correct the mistakes of the past, while also keep us competitive. Guilbert is inconsistent but to me is 10x the player Stevens was when he was at Villa. Full backs in 2020 get caught out of position, its what happens. They are almost considered attackers these days. Elmo simply isn't athletic enough to be a starting full back at this level. He works better as a winger where he's experienced enough to know when to cover and can still put in a devastating cross now and then. I like Guilbert, he's inconsistent and can be frustrating but he's young and you can see his quality. He'll become more consistent and an all round better player in time (just like Stevens) and as things stand there's no better option in our squad IMO. I suppose for the same price we could have signed a more battle ready player but how much did he cost, a few million? To get a ready to go player for that they'd have to be in their mid thirties and would leave us in the exact same position a year down the line. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, weedman said: Just out of interest, have you forgotten that the horrendous short termism of our last owners and managers left us needing to buy an entire team this summer? Just wondering, because suggesting we need players like Enda Stevens, who was absolutely awful for us however many years ago and has needed the best part of a decade in the lower leagues to become the player he is now seems crazy to me. What are you suggesting? That we go back in time several years to pick up some players on the cheap that will be coming good this season? We've basically signed a load of Enda Stevens this summer, younger players that should improve as the years go on. It's what we should have done when we first got relegated but instead Xia helped by Wyness and Bruce decided to go ultra short term and signed all players with so sell on value and massive wages. Smith and NSWE are trying to correct the mistakes of the past, while also keep us competitive. Guilbert is inconsistent but to me is 10x the player Stevens was when he was at Villa. Full backs in 2020 get caught out of position, its what happens. They are almost considered attackers these days. Elmo simply isn't athletic enough to be a starting full back at this level. He works better as a winger where he's experienced enough to know when to cover and can still put in a devastating cross now and then. I like Guilbert, he's inconsistent and can be frustrating but he's young and you can see his quality. He'll become more consistent and an all round better player in time (just like Stevens) and as things stand there's no better option in our squad IMO. I suppose for the same price we could have signed a more battle ready player but how much did he cost, a few million? To get a ready to go player for that they'd have to be in their mid thirties and would leave us in the exact same position a year down the line. No I haven't forgotten the the horrendous short termism and I am not referring to the offering Enda Stevens gave us when he was with us.....I was merely highlight the transformation under other managers tutelage.....I hear the cry, for time and development, but I am also wary of the lack of improvement in the majority of our players over the last 10-12 years.....We was all waiting for these players to improve, but waiting for a bus that was never going to arrive, why?.....because the respective coaching staffs over the years failed to get anything out of too many.....sure there will be natural wastage, like any club, but we had too many go, that turned out ok....and a failure to notice potential, like Traore as just one example. albrighton as another. We all know these things take time, like it did with Jack, when some folk, was dubious as to whether he would make it, due to a lack of strength on the ball, but on this occasion the club did great, identified that, worked on it, and Bingo....that is a success story, but there has been too many failures....I guess the next big hope is Louie Barry, lets see if we can bring him on like Jack I disagree with your generalisation of full backs, I see some very good ones in the prem who can defend very well, not denying they can attack too. Personally, I like to see Full backs able to defend crosses at far posts when they have whizzed over CB's heads ..as opposed to bombing down the wing.....but I guess with a more robust midfield,a a dominant CDM, I could temper that theory. I am not anti Freddy, but I not as convinced as some and on the other side, I feel much the same, Targetts, ability to recover is debateable....much better offensively. PS call me old fashioned, In the first instance, I want full backs to be able to defend generally and crosses, Specifically. Edited March 9, 2020 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Mjvilla said: Not quite sure on the point here. To pick 1 full back out of the whole premier league to make your point is odd. Certainly, a full back that doesn't even play in the position of the person who's thread it is, is even odder. He used to play for us, so I highlighted another missed opportunity...he is better than what we have either side.....He has come on leaps and bounds, just a point of past coaches not being able to identify potential. How many full backs have we played around with in the last 5-10 seasons are we ever going to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, TRO said: No I haven't forgotten the the horrendous short termism and I am not referring to the offering Enda Stevens gave us when he was with us.....I was merely highlight the transformation under other managers tutelage.....I hear the cry, for time and development, but I am also wary of the lack of improvement in the majority of our players over the last 10-12 years.....We was all waiting for these players to improve, but waiting for a bus that was never going to arrive, why?.....because the respective coaching staffs over the years failed to get anything out of too many.....sure there will be natural wastage, like any club, but we had too many go, that turned out ok....and a failure to notice potential, like Traore as just one example. albrighton as another. We all know these things take time, like it did with Jack, when some folk, was dubious as to whether he would make it, due to a lack of strength on the ball, but on this occasion the club did great, identified that, worked on it, and Bingo....that is a success story, but there has been too many failures....I guess the next big hope is Louie Barry, lets see if we can bring him on like Jack I disagree with your generalisation of full backs, I see some very good ones in the prem who can defend very well, not denying they can attack too. Personally, I like to see Full backs able to defend crosses at far posts when they have whizzed over CB's heads ..as opposed to bombing down the wing.....but I guess with a more robust midfield,a a dominant CDM, I could temper that theory. I am not anti Freddy, but I not as convinced as some and on the other side, I feel much the same, Targetts, ability to recover is debateable....much better offensively. PS call me old fashioned, In the first instance, I want full backs to be able to defend generally and crosses, Specifically. On the first bold point - I think the reason that so many signings have failed to improve over the last 10 years is simple, we sign players on the decline. We have consistently wasted money on 28-35 year olds who are either at the peak already or on the way down. Coaching won't improve these players any more, they've peaked already. I can barely remember ever having a balance between youth and experience, we either pretty much sign all kids, who go on to get relegated and all leave before we see any improvement, or all pensioners, who seem to keep getting worse until they're stuck in our reserve teams on 60k a week waiting to retire. Ironically this year we've actually struck a decent balance I think, but our budget was stretched so thin we may still end up relegated from it and have to start again. I do however have a lot of faith that the current owners will get us back up eventually The 2nd bit in bold is something that will come from experience, not 100% of the time of course, but in most players tracking far post runners and being wary of cut backs etc are just a few of the things that you get more accustomed to the more you play. Ashley Cole is one of the best full backs the countries ever had and he was terrible at defending until his late 20's, Trent Alexander Arnold is being hit with the "can't defend" stuff as well this season. I'm sure Guilbert will improve as he gains experience, this is still his 1st season at this kind of level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, weedman said: On the first bold point - I think the reason that so many signings have failed to improve over the last 10 years is simple, we sign players on the decline. We have consistently wasted money on 28-35 year olds who are either at the peak already or on the way down. Coaching won't improve these players any more, they've peaked already. I can barely remember ever having a balance between youth and experience, we either pretty much sign all kids, who go on to get relegated and all leave before we see any improvement, or all pensioners, who seem to keep getting worse until they're stuck in our reserve teams on 60k a week waiting to retire. Ironically this year we've actually struck a decent balance I think, but our budget was stretched so thin we may still end up relegated from it and have to start again. I do however have a lot of faith that the current owners will get us back up eventually The 2nd bit in bold is something that will come from experience, not 100% of the time of course, but in most players tracking far post runners and being wary of cut backs etc are just a few of the things that you get more accustomed to the more you play. Ashley Cole is one of the best full backs the countries ever had and he was terrible at defending until his late 20's, Trent Alexander Arnold is being hit with the "can't defend" stuff as well this season. I'm sure Guilbert will improve as he gains experience, this is still his 1st season at this kind of level Well i guess in simple terms we have been badly run in those days when perhaps it wasn't so clear or discussed....I guess hindsight is an exact science and its much clearer now. As for Guilbert, i hope you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, weedman said: On the first bold point - I think the reason that so many signings have failed to improve over the last 10 years is simple, we sign players on the decline. We have consistently wasted money on 28-35 year olds who are either at the peak already or on the way down. Coaching won't improve these players any more, they've peaked already. I can barely remember ever having a balance between youth and experience, we either pretty much sign all kids, who go on to get relegated and all leave before we see any improvement, or all pensioners, who seem to keep getting worse until they're stuck in our reserve teams on 60k a week waiting to retire. Ironically this year we've actually struck a decent balance I think, but our budget was stretched so thin we may still end up relegated from it and have to start again. I do however have a lot of faith that the current owners will get us back up eventually The 2nd bit in bold is something that will come from experience, not 100% of the time of course, but in most players tracking far post runners and being wary of cut backs etc are just a few of the things that you get more accustomed to the more you play. Ashley Cole is one of the best full backs the countries ever had and he was terrible at defending until his late 20's, Trent Alexander Arnold is being hit with the "can't defend" stuff as well this season. I'm sure Guilbert will improve as he gains experience, this is still his 1st season at this kind of level I mean, if you're expecting 28-35 year olds to improve, then yeah that's kind of being dumb. Buut when people talk about the players we signed who didn't improve, we're specifically talking about the young players we signed who didn't, or at the very least didn't improve with us. And we've had a lot of them the past 5 years or so. Grealish is the one big exception to that regard, but we had quite a few prospects over the years that just never bloomed for us. Edited March 9, 2020 by Laughable Chimp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 30 minutes ago, TRO said: Well i guess in simple terms we have been badly run in those days when perhaps it wasn't so clear or discussed....I guess hindsight is an exact science and its much clearer now. As for Guilbert, i hope you are right. I actually feel the majority of this crop will eventually come good. My main worry is about us getting relegated along with their "learning" curves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: I mean, if you're expecting 28-35 year olds to improve, then yeah that's kind of being dumb. Buut when people talk about the players we signed who didn't improve, we're specifically talking about the young players we signed who didn't, or at the very least didn't improve with us. And we've had a lot of them the past 5 years or so. Grealish is the one big exception to that regard, but we had quite a few prospects over the years that just never bloomed for us. I do think the majority of players we complain about are the older ones, obviously everyone wants the young ones to improve, but they don't play because we play the older players because they're on 60k a week and can't be left on the bench. We tend to keep these players, not playing or being loaned out, until they're in their early 20's then they have to rebuild their career in the lower leagues. It's not the coaching that's wrong, it's the lack of game time because we need instant success. A Freddie Guilbert or a Wesley get written off in their first 6 months with us so we can play someone like Elmo, even Samatta is at his peak and very unlikely to improve and not many would want Wesley playing ahead of him. We lambast young players for being inconsistent, demand that older, more experienced players are played in their place then get surprised when the young players don't develop until they leave us The likes of Cahill and Albrighton left because they weren't starters, we played Zat Knight and I don't remember who ahead of them, it's a recurring theme. We blow our budget on old players at the cost of the youth, it'd classic short termism. We sold Nathan Baker to sign John Terry. I don't think Baker would have been a world beater or anything, and I don't think he could have been considered young, but last season when we were playing an injured Chester and Jedinak at CB we could have used him. Us signing players on the decline because they're a little bit better now or a little bit more consistent now is why none of our youth players seem to develop. Jack was fairly quickly changed from promising youth player making his debut to first name on the team sheet. He absolutely blossomed with the pressure and the minutes. He wasn't great at first in the championship, but regular game time saw him grow into the best player in the league. He wasn't the best at first in the PL, but regular game time has seen him grow into one of the best players. Give the likes of Luiz, Nakamba, Wesley, Guilbert, Konsa etc regular game time and we'll reap the benefits in the future, in the past we'd have a load of players in their late 20's or early 30's playing those positions, finish comfortably mid table and complain that none of our younger players are improving. Sure, mid table would be great, but if you consistently buy rather than develop players eventually you'll get it wrong and go down, and you'll never improve beyond mid table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 9, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted March 9, 2020 He’s shit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 Finds the touchline more than Alan. Bring back Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 He is so, so bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 9, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted March 9, 2020 Pathetic performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 9, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted March 9, 2020 On 05/03/2020 at 17:05, sir_gary_cahill said: He’s notched a couple of goals and assists, his primary job is to defend, he is good at it I think, he seems to play better against the better sides, I think he’s done well I hope you watched tonight’s game. He’s awful 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 Like most players we've signed he's just not prem class. We signed him as a championship team though so know surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condimentalist Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 Embarrassing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 Rancid but why has he gone from an absolute running machine to a lethargic old man with the running gait of a cripple. Abysmal fitness coaching. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwi1890 Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 Guilber idiot , I can borderline deal with him being poor but lack of effort I hate! Jogging never sprinting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 A genuine 0 out 10 performance tonight. Did nothing right and just chased the ball like a brain dead puppy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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