Xela Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, AVTuco said: Good young player to have around, but really shouldn't be starting if we're aiming to be top 10. His performances this season say otherwise 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted October 5, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Xela said: His performances this season say otherwise That's what I hear here, but not what I see in games. Note that I'mnot saying he's bad or anything like that, but still very raw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, AVTuco said: That's what I hear here, but not what I see in games. Note that I'mnot saying he's bad or anything like that, but still very raw. I think he's done very well and the management obviously see something in him. I think he has a high ceiling. I maybe wrong! I do think he needs a goal to get that duck broken though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Very young to be cutting the mustard in the prem. In the team on merit and as above would appear to have very high ceilings. Game of 2 halves Sick as a parrot Set our stall out Over the moon ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 11 minutes ago, AVTuco said: That's what I hear here, but not what I see in games. Note that I'mnot saying he's bad or anything like that, but still very raw. A number of pundits, opposition fans and a wide section of us have singled him out for praise, based on a few performances. So I don't know. Then again, everybody sees the game differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted October 5, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2021 22 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: A number of pundits, opposition fans and a wide section of us have singled him out for praise, based on a few performances. So I don't know. Then again, everybody sees the game differently. Yes, and I know I'm in a minority here. I just can't see it. Yes, he's done very well compared to what was expected. Relatively good is not absolutely good though. I still don't rate our midfield. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keener window-cleaner Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Even if we go by this argument, the fact that he has been the best midfielder in a couple of games, when you see him as " Ok " at max, which isn't good enough for you, would suggest that the other midfielders performed worse, and might be more of a problem? Again, what " stand out " qualities are you expecting from a CM? Not an attacking midfielder or winger, or striker, a CM. I bet you rate Carney Chukwuemeka highly, did you see anything stand out in his performances/cameos against PL opposition? Everybody isn't going to be a prodigy either, there is nothing wrong with having a GOOD, all round solid CM, for free. I'd suggest the criticisms and/or upgrades should be focused on some of the seniors who have very clear ceilings. Well I don't agree that he has been the best midfielder in a couple of games. He and McGinn has played in front of Luiz and I think McGinn has brought much more to the team in every game, battled, harrassed and pressed more and contributed with some creativity. Luiz is difficult to compare with as they play in different positions, Luiz has been the holding midfielder and played quite well, I don't think Ramsey can play that role yet, and neither seems Dean Smith think so. For being a box to box midfielder I think ramsey hasn't contributed enough defensively, McGinn has contributed more. Against Spurs Ramsey was overrun. Attacking wise Ramsey hasn't contributed much either. Playing as a box to box midfielder in this formation you have to be more all action midfielder in my view. Don't get me wrong, I have high hopes for Ramsey and love watching our youngsters coming through. But at the moment I don't think he contributes enough. I don't like seeing Buendia and Traore on the bench and then having three grafters in the middle and two full backs on the wings. We lack quality in the final third imo, and of these players Ramsey is the one for me that shouldn't play at the moment. Luiz is our best holding midfielder, and McGinn brings more to the team than Ramsey. Re Chuck I think I've written in some thread that I don't really see him ready for PL yet and wondered if it is his physicallity that makes him look so dominant for the youth teams/U23. As the rest I of course have high hopes for him, and he is still so young so it's not fair to judge him by one or two short appearences. Would really love to see a team in the future with the three Ramseys and the two Chukwuemekas! But it doesn't change the fact that I right now don't think JJ contributes enough and would like for example Buendia to play instead of him. Edited October 5, 2021 by Keener window-cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 4 hours ago, AVTuco said: Yes, and I know I'm in a minority here. I just can't see it. Yes, he's done very well compared to what was expected. Relatively good is not absolutely good though. I still don't rate our midfield. He does need to be more effective....but there again in some games so do the other 2....He is neat and tidy, but needs to find an edge more consistently.....its part of developing. He is holding his own with 2 full internationals, so he can feel that he is on the right track. Against Spurs they started ok but they were subdued and negated, later on....They need to overcome that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said: Well I don't agree that he has been the best midfielder in a couple of games. He and McGinn has played in front of Luiz and I think McGinn has brought much more to the team in every game, battled, harrassed and pressed more and contributed with some creativity. Luiz is difficult to compare with as they play in different positions, Luiz has been the holding midfielder and played quite well, I don't think Ramsey can play that role yet, and neither seems Dean Smith think so. For being a box to box midfielder I think ramsey hasn't contributed enough defensively, McGinn has contributed more. Against Spurs Ramsey was overrun. Attacking wise Ramsey hasn't contributed much either. Playing as a box to box midfielder in this formation you have to be more all action midfielder in my view. Don't get me wrong, I have high hopes for Ramsey and love watching our youngsters coming through. But at the moment I don't think he contributes enough. I don't like seeing Buendia and Traore on the bench and then having three grafters in the middle and two full backs on the wings. We lack quality in the final third imo, and of these players Ramsey is the one for me that shouldn't play at the moment. Luiz is our best holding midfielder, and McGinn brings more to the team than Ramsey. Re Chuck I think I've written in some thread that I don't really see him ready for PL yet and wondered if it is his physicallity that makes him look so dominant for the youth teams/U23. As the rest I of course have high hopes for him, and he is still so young so it's not fair to judge him by one or two short appearences. Would really love to see a team in the future with the three Ramseys and the two Chukwuemekas! But it doesn't change the fact that I right now don't think JJ contributes enough and would like for example Buendia to play instead of him. I saw Luiz losing out a few times too, particularly with loose balls, failing to hold......They all scored 6's on who scored, so there was nothing in it. also, who was picking up Hojbjerg, when he was lining up, it was left to Konza to deal with him and Kane to his right.....midfield should be doing better in holding, we have 3 to help out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 On 04/10/2021 at 17:17, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: He's a good old fashioned CM, not an attacking midfielder. Further more, just throwing a stat like that out there is a false narrative. The majority of those " minutes " were him being bedded in slowly, less confident and doing much less. We've ayed 6 games this season, which in 1 or 2 of them he was arguably our best midfielder, has shown great driving runs and intent. Plus unlucky not to have gotten a couple. It's almost like making a claim that Nakamba is shit because he's got zero goals and assists vs. minutes. Out of interest, how many has Luiz gotten this season? 2 asissts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, MotoMkali said: 2 asissts Yes someone pointed that out a couple of pages back. My point still remains though. Luiz is a senior player. This is probably Ramsey's first season as a bonafide " senior ", and we,'re only 7 games into it. This is not me saying that, another midfielder ( Sanson / New signing? ), wouldn't necessarily be better, but I find the criticism highly unreasonable given the context. If we were to buy another top CM, I'd not necessarily have an issue, but I'd like to see how these develop. There are other CMs in our swaud I'd be looking to upgrade/replace before Ramsey Edited October 6, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 Put it this way, if we put Buendia in as a 10 to play 4231, I'd be leaning towards wanting Ramsey starting over McGinn to partner Douglas Luiz. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 31 minutes ago, Tom13 said: Put it this way, if we put Buendia in as a 10 to play 4231, I'd be leaning towards wanting Ramsey starting over McGinn to partner Douglas Luiz. Me too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonVillian Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On 04/10/2021 at 17:17, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: He's a good old fashioned CM, not an attacking midfielder. Further more, just throwing a stat like that out there is a false narrative. The majority of those " minutes " were him being bedded in slowly, less confident and doing much less. We've ayed 6 games this season, which in 1 or 2 of them he was arguably our best midfielder, has shown great driving runs and intent. Plus unlucky not to have gotten a couple. It's almost like making a claim that Nakamba is shit because he's got zero goals and assists vs. minutes. Out of interest, how many has Luiz gotten this season? I disagree I think if anything he's a box to box midfielder - Nakamba sits in front of the back 4 in a completely different role for me. I do agree that alot of those minutes were bedding in and we cant write him off or anything like that. Still think we need to start seeing more influence in the game in terms of key passes / goals and assists. Douglas Luiz has played 513 minutes and has 2 assists this season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, LondonVillian said: Douglas Luiz has played 513 minutes and has 2 assists this season. Yeah, and one was from taking a corner, granted he swung it in well, but still. Can't remember his other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonVillian Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 Just now, Tom13 said: Yeah, and one was from taking a corner, granted he swung it in well, but still. Can't remember his other. Still counts though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, LondonVillian said: Still counts though? Do you not get my point though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jono62 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 15 minutes ago, Tom13 said: Yeah, and one was from taking a corner, granted he swung it in well, but still. Can't remember his other. Ball into Cash for the first goal against Everton. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 Just now, Jono62 said: Ball into Cash for the first goal against Everton. Ah yeah, that one was superb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tom13 said: Yeah, and one was from taking a corner, granted he swung it in well, but still. Can't remember his other. The slick through ball to Cash for the first v Everton when he was playing further forward? Apologies, just seen above. Its only really fair to compare Luiz's stats for the minutes he is playing in a more advanced role. I like the look of JJ and have high hopes for him but I would much rather we had bought in, say, McKennie (or equivalent) and let JJ go out on loan to a strong Championship side and play 30+ games. I am keen for our youth to progress but I don't think they can be learning on our dollar if we truly aspire to reach the European spots in the next couple of seasons. If he progressed well there then he can come back and displace a proper player or maybe spend a season in the lower echelons of the premier league (as for Gallagher) - that's how the big clubs do it and I'd like to see us aspire to that. Edited October 7, 2021 by barry'sboots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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