paul514 Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 Just now, StanBalaban said: I deliberately avoided using the word 'privilege' in the questions, but I was asking if you believe white people have a socioeconomic leg-up in life because they're white? Similarly, do you think there are times where black or Asian's are a comparable advantage? Thanks for answering the other question. Well obviously the answer is yes to both. Everyone can have an advantage over another because of the in group preferences of the individual giving that preference. I do think white people as a group have economic advantages over non whites and I expect that, their family line have lived in a rich country for longer on average. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, blandy said: Why isn’t racism railed against? Is that what you’re asking? Yes. You can be English and Jewish, or English and Muslim or you can be born in England and not be English, or not be born in England and still be English. But thanks for showing the definition you’ve used (genuinely). There are others, though. Specifically positive discrimination, lot of people don’t think that is racism and see it as a positive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 minute ago, paul514 said: Specifically positive discrimination, lot of people don’t think that is racism and see it as a positive. I dunno. 'Booooooo. Booooo to shortlisting shortlisting least one black candidate for positions in which black people are systematically underrepresented.' I don't think it's a good look and I don't think people are booing for that reason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: I dunno. 'Booooooo. Booooo to shortlisting shortlisting least one black candidate for positions in which black people are systematically underrepresented.' I don't think it's a good look and I don't think people are booing for that reason. You can’t know why an individual is booing, no one but the individual can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, paul514 said: You can’t know why an individual is booing, no one but the individual can. Because they're massive racists booing a gesture that the kneelers have said many times means 'stop racism'. It really isn't more complex than that. Edited July 17, 2021 by StefanAVFC 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2021 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2021 21 minutes ago, paul514 said: Specifically positive discrimination, lot of people don’t think that is racism and see it as a positive. Yeah. I tend to agree that the solution to discrimination against individuals based on their colour, isn’t more discrimination against individuals based on their colour. I’m not wholly against it in every circumstance, but it needs to be used very carefully. “we need a new secretary and she must be black” is wrong, but “we need 100 new secretaries and we should try to get around 8 or so of them from a black background” is probably a good idea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Because they're massive racists booing a gesture that they have said many times means 'stop racism. It really isn't more complex than that. Some believe it's supporting BLM. some don't agree with taking the knee although support kick it out, some are 16-20 something knobbers who just think there ard, some follow the crowd cause there drunk, some follow the crowd just cause there idiots, need anymore. Does not mean they are guilty of racism!!! There are certainly some noise from racists in the crowd, but shockingly some who keep it to themselves too (ooohh imagine that), but there are also lots of idiots out there too (i.e the mess at Wembley), so I think you need to wake up and stop sticking to your 1 single narrative. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Because they're massive racists booing a gesture that they have said many times means 'stop racism. It really isn't more complex than that. I'm going to refer back to my mate that I spoke about in this thread. He is a mate, but he's also a racist. The odd thing is that he doesn't think he is. I'm sure he's not alone. He'll never attack anyone based on race - in fact he'd never attack anyone full stop - but, largely unwittingly, assumes a superiority complex over non-whites. Again, he doesn't realise. It was pointed out that by receiving racist WhatsApp 'jokes' and forwarding them on makes him part of the problem, but he didn't understand as he said they were "harmless and legitimately funny". He's far from alone. I mentioned that he doesn't watch football, but chose to boo TTK at the Euros. The amount of strong opinions he has on things that don't affect his life leads me to conclude that he forms his opinions mainly from his family and his newspaper of choice. He watches the F1 but never comments about the anti racism message, because the papers don't talk about it like they do the football. Anyhoo, my point returns to the fact that he can't see that he's a racist. "Sure I'll share black jokes, doesn't make me a racist..." "Sure I'll boo the England team and not listen to any of their reasoning. Doesn't make me a racist..." "I can live anywhere in the world and be seen as an expat.... ... there's too many immigrants in the UK." I honestly think there's a lot of people out there like him that simply don't realise they're racists. Edited July 17, 2021 by StanBalaban 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2021 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2021 13 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: there are also lots of idiots out there too Agreed. Not everyone who boos TTK is a racist, that’s too simplistic. But there’s a lot of idiocy and ignorance, most of it wilful, in the booing. The rest is just racists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, blandy said: Agreed. Not everyone who boos TTK is a racist, that’s too simplistic. But there’s a lot of idiocy and ignorance, most of it wilful, in the booing. The rest is just racists. I would usually agree with you here blandy, but the amount of clarifications that have been made about the gesture, the distancing from BLM and apparent Marxism, it IS as simple as that now. As @StanBalaban rightly states, they may not think of themselves as racist, but booing the gesture, at this point, after all of the noise is racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2021 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: the amount of clarifications that have been made about the gesture, the distancing from BLM and apparent Marxism, it IS as simple as that now. Ok. I think my point is this. If I were a poor white working class man or woman seeing things as “the state, no one, is doing anything to help me or my kids” I might feel that “millionaire footballers taking the knee for black people (only)” was something I didn’t like. I see that as wilful ignorance, not racism per se. That person’s interpretation is their interpretation, not mine. Only they can know the reasoning for them booing, but they’re not automatically racist,IMO 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, blandy said: Ok. I think my point is this. If I were a poor white working class man or woman seeing things as “the state, no one, is doing anything to help me or my kids” I might feel that “millionaire footballers taking the knee for black people (only)” was something I didn’t like. I see that as wilful ignorance, not racism per se. That person’s interpretation is their interpretation, not mine. Only they can know the reasoning for them booing, but they’re not automatically racist,IMO Voice of reason. Believe me @StefanAVFC they really don't know exactly what they are booing, not everyone is interested in knowing either, an you must be pretty nieve to think so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 34 minutes ago, blandy said: Yeah. I tend to agree that the solution to discrimination against individuals based on their colour, isn’t more discrimination against individuals based on their colour. I’m not wholly against it in every circumstance, but it needs to be used very carefully. “we need a new secretary and she must be black” is wrong, but “we need 100 new secretaries and we should try to get around 8 or so of them from a black background” is probably a good idea Or alternatively we need 100 secretaries and the main criteria is their talent irrespective of their colour or creed....we recruit the best candidates. Aston Villa too, show that talent comes first, the colour of their skin is irrelevant. I ask the question Pete, if Tyrone had taken a penalty and missed, would he have got social media abuse, from white villa fans.....I would like to think he would not. Some of this is Racism, it can't be denied, but some is still tribal too. I am not saying Black people haven't got a case, but its a complex subject to control the minds of the whole population.....we can only keep trying and seeking solutions and improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvonVillain Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 13 hours ago, fruitvilla said: Just out of curiosity ... how much of Brexit was driven by the presence of Eastern Europeans? I was not there so it is difficult to judge. Absolutely massive. The #1 reason. Followed by some elite economic bullshit that effects only the top 1%'ers. As someone who has worked around Europe, and sees themselves as being more European than English, I'm still heartbroken by this and furious with some of my oldest friends who voted for Brexit. I had a fabulous conversation with a French lecturer a while back, who has lived in Walsall for nearly 20 years, which is why we struck up the conversation and my own background, which turned to Brexit. He *looked* hurt, spoke about moving his family away, and I spoke about the humiliation and shock us Remainers felt. How even we felt unsettled and confused and embarrassed by it all. He seemed really moved by this, and approached me after his talk to thank me for what I had said. Just to tie this back in to the topic at hand, which I didn't wish to comment on further because of the level of debate, naturally, I called everyone a thick racist word removed who voted to leave, and naturally I wasn't entirely correct. It was just easier to dismiss people this way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, blandy said: Ok. I think my point is this. If I were a poor white working class man or woman seeing things as “the state, no one, is doing anything to help me or my kids” I might feel that “millionaire footballers taking the knee for black people (only)” was something I didn’t like. I see that as wilful ignorance, not racism per se. That person’s interpretation is their interpretation, not mine. Only they can know the reasoning for them booing, but they’re not automatically racist,IMO Yeah I can accept that, and I can also accept that no one is asking for their opinion too - further disenfranchising a certain section of the population. If we make blanket assumptions about motives then we're not making an attempt to tackle the issue. Sadly, there's many that boo simply due to ignorant racist views. Could be a superiority complex, or a fear that things are changing in their lives, lack of education or critical thinking or, a kid of herd mentality with minimal substance behind their actions...who knows. Some see themselves as virtuous and will never change, others may simply have no understanding of what they're doing. TTK has got people talking, but let's hope that it can also get people to listen too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2021 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, TRO said: if Tyrone had taken a penalty and missed, would he have got social media abuse, from white villa fans.....I would like to think he would not. He would I fear. There are sadly racists amongst us and it’s getting worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 14 minutes ago, blandy said: Ok. I think my point is this. If I were a poor white working class man or woman seeing things as “the state, no one, is doing anything to help me or my kids” I might feel that “millionaire footballers taking the knee for black people (only)” was something I didn’t like. I see that as wilful ignorance, not racism per se. That person’s interpretation is their interpretation, not mine. Only they can know the reasoning for them booing, but they’re not automatically racist,IMO That is precisely the complexity I was championing. until we know for sure why each one is booing, which may not be the same motive, we can't just jump to conclusions. When they are caught, they should be debriefed and the authorities maybe clearer as to what they are dealing with....as we know some are just sheep, the big bloke boos, so I better boo. Perhaps, we should clap and drown out the boos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 minute ago, blandy said: He would I fear. There are sadly racists amongst us and it’s getting worse Yep... Unfortunately without a doubt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2021 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2021 18 hours ago, TRO said: we should clap and drown out the boos. That’s what’s happening. Also the TTK has gone from maybe a minute to maybe 10 seconds. It’s over before anyone has a chance to create a chorus of boos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 The answer is ignorent people and you cant fix that.For example If a player is bad then it dosent matter what colour he is,hes bad.If a player is good,again it dosent matter what colour he is,hes good and if a player plays for the team that you support then he should be untouchable. So,as I said,its driven by ignorance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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